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Post by ncaavballguru on Jan 6, 2015 10:55:27 GMT -5
Again, the point was that volleyball is a relatively untapped area. Baseball? Golf? Tennis? Do you even read what you write? Don't blame me if you totally misunderstood the OP. I did not misunderstand the OP.
Give me a break, this argument and discussion is decades old.
Volleyball will continue to be the way it is because the decision-makers in this sport want to keep it that way.
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Post by #skoskers on Jan 6, 2015 11:09:26 GMT -5
ok, ok....another season of womens volleyball is over and we have much of the same: Russ Rose continues his fast approaching god like status, the RPI continues to hate on most western conferences, Washington plays it's worse when it matters the most, "parity" seems to be the new trendy word, but at the end of the day it's the same usual suspects, Texas fans are still super annoying, the NCAA is hellbent on having some sort of post season site in the miserable great state of Kentucky year after year, Mick Haley should retire, The Big 10 has further inked itself as THE conference for this current decade, John Cook is still a big douche bag, the Pac-12 continues to grasp as whatever straws it can and is stuck in it's 90's and 2000's glory days, Hawaii fans would rather die than admit that their program is becoming irrelevant on the elite national scene, and the mens volleyball season just isn't fun. So lets talk about something more thought provoking. (disclaimer- this topic makes assumptions about race and therefore could offend certain posters. If you feel like this may be you, don't read any further) The other day I had an interesting conversation with some friends of mine. I was at a holiday party and during a conversation I had with a couple, I learned that their 5 year old daughter is very athletically gifted. She is already 4'1'' which is pretty tall for a 5 year old, well built, and her parents were athletes throughout college (football and basketball). Needless to say, she has a lot going for her genetically. The parents were talking about the sports she's in right now, namely t-ball, soccer, and basketball. I asked them if they saw any sort of legit future for their daughter in sports or if they are doing all these activities more for pleasure. They were pretty certain that she was athletically gifted and "with the right motivation" she could get a college scholarship in sports. Obviously, this mentality is nothing new, many parents have these thoughts and aspirations. But when I wondered if they had considered having her play volleyball, they looked at me like I was foreign and scoffed at volleyball as a "recreation" sport. I want to point out that this family is of african american descent. I make this distinction because it's something I've noticed throughout my years (as a person of color). I tried to reason with them that volleyball is an incredible sport with endless opportunity at the college level for women. And, more notably, for pure athletically gifted minority women. Volleyball just hasn't made the inroads in general african american culture as other sports and I think it's having a negative effect on the future growth of the sport. It's no secret that African Americans, on average, tend to be more athletically gifted (mostly to do with hereditary and social natural selection, aka slavery). For example, African Americans make up the vast majority of NFL and NBA players.....During the conversation I tried to reason with this family regarding how successful a naturally gifted athlete can be at volleyball, and, more importantly, how highly sought after they are by college coaches. I started mentioning how many top rated recruits barely even touched a volleyball until late middle school or high school. I thought about my list and wondered for a bit. I was then asked by a family what I would do if I was in their position. I said these exact words, "get your daughter, right now at the age of 5, to any coach willing to teach her to set, pass, and defend in the backrow, and that would be one of the best opportunities for her to get a college scholarship." I was sort of shocked by that I said, but I knew I was kind of right. Over 1/3 of the 1st team All Americans in the last 6 years have been of African American descent. Of those 31 selections, only 1 could either pass/set/backrow defend at a high level. Everyone else have been first and foremost front row hitters and blockers. Why is that? Obviously specialization has caused a lot of the disconnect but it seems to be further exacerbated among the African American players. Why is it that we see more and more African Americans littering the top 10 recruit lists and All American lists, but it's almost never for the finer touches of the sport? the passing, the setting, the digging? Even Glass, the lone 1st team All American wasn't rated based on her setting ability coming out of high school. Imagine what she would have looked like if she had solid setting lessons when she was starting middle school? How good could Haley Eckerman be if she spent half as much time passing and defending as she did hitting the ball in her youth? I'd like to to think that all of these outcomes are mere coincidence, but something tells me it's not. I'm not even sure the "finer" touches of the sport among African American players is even unique to volleyball. Almost 70% of the NFL are of African American descent, yet, you go to any best quarterback lists and you will frequently find names like Manning, Brees, Romo, Brady, Rodgers, Rivers, with the occasional mention of an African American player like Wilson, but still it's pretty non-African American dominate when it comes to high profile/high successful QB's in the NFL. Anyway, just thought I'd share Where to even begin… First, Ay, it’s too bad that you had to hate on Texas fans, Kentucky, and John Cook to attempt to make a point about race in volleyball. Prefacing your thread as an “honest” discussion by first bashing on coaches, fans, and programs was the first red flag I noted. It’s too bad that the people who actually want to discuss race relations and race in athletics have to first read through such a diatribe. (IDGAF if people are offended by caps lock) PEOPLE WHO REALLY BELIEVE THAT BLACKS ARE ATHLETIC BECAUSE OF THE INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY ARE UNINFORMED, AND YOUR PSEUDO-SCIENTIFIC EXPLANATIONS FOR BLACK SUCCESS IN SPORTS SUPPLEMENTS LONG-HELD CULTURAL CONVICTIONS. THE HISTORICAL ROMANCE WITH SLAVERY AND THE PERSISTENT MISUSES OF RACIAL SCIENCE HAVE SERVED PERMANENT NOTICE OF WHAT CAN HAPPEN WHEN AN “INTELLECTUAL” AND “HONEST” INTEREST IN HUMAN DIFFERENCES HARDENS INTO AN OBSESSION BASED ON ETHNICITY OR RACE. Ethnic academia disagrees with the notion that slavery made blacks better athletes. If this were the case, why don’t we see Jews dominating sports, because they too were slaves for centuries? Anthropologists, ethnographers, and biologists have debunked the idea that slavery gifted athletic prowess to Blacks. In my eyes, and many others, socio-economics plays a larger role in shaping the trends of race in athletics, especially volleyball. For many Blacks, who historically and contemporarily have had fewer academic resources to succeed and live the supposed American dream, sports have been their means of access into high incomes, success, and entry into the institutions dominated and controlled by whites. The situation for inner-city schools isn’t getting better, either, so expect to see more Blacks in higher education via athletic scholarship, given that affirmative action programs are sadly becoming endangered in universities. In a Native studies course I took, many speakers pointed out how antiquated theories that Natives are innately dumber and have less intellectual capacity to succeed have been detrimental to the Native community, because it’s not only false and degrading, but it’s completely side stepping a more meaningful conversation. To these guest speakers, they believe that Native American youth don’t have heroes from their community, which means the youth don’t have anyone to idolize or aspire to become, which leads to higher drop-out, incarceration, and alcohol-abuse rates. Whereas whites have a long history of politicians, athletes, entertainers, and CEOs to admire, Blacks are limited to one Black president and a huuuuge slew of athletes and entertainers. Also, your rhetoric makes you seem unsympathetic to Blacks in the first place. Saying that they are “littering the top 10 recruit lists” seems really insensitive, especially for someone who had to first point out that he has African American friends, and, therefore, comes from an “honest” place to discuss these important issues. Don’t get me wrong. I don’t consider the discussion of race and athletics to be taboo. I feel people should discuss these issues. However, I am whole-heartedly against your selfish prefacing paragraph and the idea that slavery made Blacks athletic.
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Post by Not Me on Jan 6, 2015 11:11:37 GMT -5
Let's get Jimmy the Greek's take on this issue .....
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Post by Wolfgang on Jan 6, 2015 11:14:17 GMT -5
Let's get Jimmy the Greek's take on this issue ..... I think your reference would be lost on anyone who didn't follow football in the 1970s/early 1980s, particularly CBS's pregame show The NFL Today.
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Post by #skoskers on Jan 6, 2015 11:15:15 GMT -5
Not sure you can use Alisha Glass as an example of the typical African American volleyball player. She has a Caucasian mother and was raised by an all-Causasian middle-class family in the overwhelmingly white community of Leland, Michigan. Her African American father apparently has not been involved in her life. Her mother is a high school teacher and volleyball coach and was Alisha's high school coach. Alisha Glass family story(Unfortunately, the image on the above page of her "extended family" photo has a broken link. But I remember it well... Alisha is the only one with a dark complexion.) Leland is a tiny fishing and resort community in the extreme northwestern corner of Michigan's lower peninsula: Leland, MichiganIts main tourist attraction is "Fish Town": Fish TownAlisha truly was supported by her community. Each time her Penn State team played at Michigan a large and loyal group of fans made the long drive from northern Michigan to watch her play. They sat as a group and Alisha would wave from the floor to acknowledge them. What is the "typical, African American volleyball player?"
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Post by ay2013 on Jan 6, 2015 11:18:16 GMT -5
ok, ok....another season of womens volleyball is over and we have much of the same: Russ Rose continues his fast approaching god like status, the RPI continues to hate on most western conferences, Washington plays it's worse when it matters the most, "parity" seems to be the new trendy word, but at the end of the day it's the same usual suspects, Texas fans are still super annoying, the NCAA is hellbent on having some sort of post season site in the miserable great state of Kentucky year after year, Mick Haley should retire, The Big 10 has further inked itself as THE conference for this current decade, John Cook is still a big douche bag, the Pac-12 continues to grasp as whatever straws it can and is stuck in it's 90's and 2000's glory days, Hawaii fans would rather die than admit that their program is becoming irrelevant on the elite national scene, and the mens volleyball season just isn't fun. So lets talk about something more thought provoking. (disclaimer- this topic makes assumptions about race and therefore could offend certain posters. If you feel like this may be you, don't read any further) The other day I had an interesting conversation with some friends of mine. I was at a holiday party and during a conversation I had with a couple, I learned that their 5 year old daughter is very athletically gifted. She is already 4'1'' which is pretty tall for a 5 year old, well built, and her parents were athletes throughout college (football and basketball). Needless to say, she has a lot going for her genetically. The parents were talking about the sports she's in right now, namely t-ball, soccer, and basketball. I asked them if they saw any sort of legit future for their daughter in sports or if they are doing all these activities more for pleasure. They were pretty certain that she was athletically gifted and "with the right motivation" she could get a college scholarship in sports. Obviously, this mentality is nothing new, many parents have these thoughts and aspirations. But when I wondered if they had considered having her play volleyball, they looked at me like I was foreign and scoffed at volleyball as a "recreation" sport. I want to point out that this family is of african american descent. I make this distinction because it's something I've noticed throughout my years (as a person of color). I tried to reason with them that volleyball is an incredible sport with endless opportunity at the college level for women. And, more notably, for pure athletically gifted minority women. Volleyball just hasn't made the inroads in general african american culture as other sports and I think it's having a negative effect on the future growth of the sport. It's no secret that African Americans, on average, tend to be more athletically gifted (mostly to do with hereditary and social natural selection, aka slavery). For example, African Americans make up the vast majority of NFL and NBA players.....During the conversation I tried to reason with this family regarding how successful a naturally gifted athlete can be at volleyball, and, more importantly, how highly sought after they are by college coaches. I started mentioning how many top rated recruits barely even touched a volleyball until late middle school or high school. I thought about my list and wondered for a bit. I was then asked by a family what I would do if I was in their position. I said these exact words, "get your daughter, right now at the age of 5, to any coach willing to teach her to set, pass, and defend in the backrow, and that would be one of the best opportunities for her to get a college scholarship." I was sort of shocked by that I said, but I knew I was kind of right. Over 1/3 of the 1st team All Americans in the last 6 years have been of African American descent. Of those 31 selections, only 1 could either pass/set/backrow defend at a high level. Everyone else have been first and foremost front row hitters and blockers. Why is that? Obviously specialization has caused a lot of the disconnect but it seems to be further exacerbated among the African American players. Why is it that we see more and more African Americans littering the top 10 recruit lists and All American lists, but it's almost never for the finer touches of the sport? the passing, the setting, the digging? Even Glass, the lone 1st team All American wasn't rated based on her setting ability coming out of high school. Imagine what she would have looked like if she had solid setting lessons when she was starting middle school? How good could Haley Eckerman be if she spent half as much time passing and defending as she did hitting the ball in her youth? I'd like to to think that all of these outcomes are mere coincidence, but something tells me it's not. I'm not even sure the "finer" touches of the sport among African American players is even unique to volleyball. Almost 70% of the NFL are of African American descent, yet, you go to any best quarterback lists and you will frequently find names like Manning, Brees, Romo, Brady, Rodgers, Rivers, with the occasional mention of an African American player like Wilson, but still it's pretty non-African American dominate when it comes to high profile/high successful QB's in the NFL. Anyway, just thought I'd share Where to even begin… First, Ay, it’s too bad that you had to hate on Texas fans, Kentucky, and John Cook to attempt to make a point about race in volleyball. Prefacing your thread as an “honest” discussion by first bashing on coaches, fans, and programs was the first red flag I noted. It’s too bad that the people who actually want to discuss race relations and race in athletics have to first read through such a diatribe. (IDGAF if people are offended by caps lock) PEOPLE WHO REALLY BELIEVE THAT BLACKS ARE ATHLETIC BECAUSE OF THE INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY ARE UNINFORMED, AND YOUR PSEUDO-SCIENTIFIC EXPLANATIONS FOR BLACK SUCCESS IN SPORTS SUPPLEMENTS LONG-HELD CULTURAL CONVICTIONS. THE HISTORICAL ROMANCE WITH SLAVERY AND THE PERSISTENT MISUSES OF RACIAL SCIENCE HAVE SERVED PERMANENT NOTICE OF WHAT CAN HAPPEN WHEN AN “INTELLECTUAL” AND “HONEST” INTEREST IN HUMAN DIFFERENCES HARDENS INTO AN OBSESSION BASED ON ETHNICITY OR RACE. Ethnic academia disagrees with the notion that slavery made blacks better athletes. If this were the case, why don’t we see Jews dominating sports, because they too were slaves for centuries? Anthropologists, ethnographers, and biologists have debunked the idea that slavery gifted athletic prowess to Blacks. In my eyes, and many others, socio-economics plays a larger role in shaping the trends of race in athletics, especially volleyball. For many Blacks, who historically and contemporarily have had fewer academic resources to succeed and live the supposed American dream, sports have been their means of access into high incomes, success, and entry into the institutions dominated and controlled by whites. The situation for inner-city schools isn’t getting better, either, so expect to see more Blacks in higher education via athletic scholarship, given that affirmative action programs are sadly becoming endangered in universities. In a Native studies course I took, many speakers pointed out how antiquated theories that Natives are innately dumber and have less intellectual capacity to succeed have been detrimental to the Native community, because it’s not only false and degrading, but it’s completely side stepping a more meaningful conversation. To these guest speakers, they believe that Native American youth don’t have heroes from their community, which means the youth don’t have anyone to idolize or aspire to become, which leads to higher drop-out, incarceration, and alcohol-abuse rates. Whereas whites have a long history of politicians, athletes, entertainers, and CEOs to admire, Blacks are limited to one Black president and a huuuuge slew of athletes and entertainers. Also, your rhetoric makes you seem unsympathetic to Blacks in the first place. Saying that they are “littering the top 10 recruit lists” seems really insensitive, especially for someone who had to first point out that he has African American friends, and, therefore, comes from an “honest” place to discuss these important issues. Don’t get me wrong. I don’t consider the discussion of race and athletics to be taboo. I feel people should discuss these issues. However, I am whole-heartedly against your selfish prefacing paragraph and the idea that slavery made Blacks athletic. I really did write this as a legit discussion...if my lame attempt at witty humor in the 1st paragraph is that much of a distraction, I'll remove it I'm not "unsympathetic" to black people Also, I AM black and I didn't feel the need to mention my friends were black to try and preface this "honesty" (I would have said what I said REGARDLESS of who they are), I used them because I think they are part of the overall point I was trying to make about african americans and the sport of volleyball. Even wealthier African American families (which my friends are) aren't pushing their children into volleyball like they COULD even though there is a lot of opportunity for them to develop and go on to great schools through athletics through volleyball, and I think a decent part of that is the attitude of the parents I also think that ignoring the gene pool here in America for blacks, which had been artificially constricted to more superior athletic people is ignoring history and science. Sure there are a myriad of reasons of why we see more black athletes, much of which is natural genetic, slavery or no slavery, but I also think that genetically superior people building a life with other genetically superior people means their offspring has more of chance to be genetically superior.
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Post by #skoskers on Jan 6, 2015 11:21:09 GMT -5
ok, ok....another season of womens volleyball is over and we have much of the same: Russ Rose continues his fast approaching god like status, the RPI continues to hate on most western conferences, Washington plays it's worse when it matters the most, "parity" seems to be the new trendy word, but at the end of the day it's the same usual suspects, Texas fans are still super annoying, the NCAA is hellbent on having some sort of post season site in the miserable great state of Kentucky year after year, Mick Haley should retire, The Big 10 has further inked itself as THE conference for this current decade, John Cook is still a big douche bag, the Pac-12 continues to grasp as whatever straws it can and is stuck in it's 90's and 2000's glory days, Hawaii fans would rather die than admit that their program is becoming irrelevant on the elite national scene, and the mens volleyball season just isn't fun. So lets talk about something more thought provoking. (disclaimer- this topic makes assumptions about race and therefore could offend certain posters. If you feel like this may be you, don't read any further) The other day I had an interesting conversation with some friends of mine. I was at a holiday party and during a conversation I had with a couple, I learned that their 5 year old daughter is very athletically gifted. She is already 4'1'' which is pretty tall for a 5 year old, well built, and her parents were athletes throughout college (football and basketball). Needless to say, she has a lot going for her genetically. The parents were talking about the sports she's in right now, namely t-ball, soccer, and basketball. I asked them if they saw any sort of legit future for their daughter in sports or if they are doing all these activities more for pleasure. They were pretty certain that she was athletically gifted and "with the right motivation" she could get a college scholarship in sports. Obviously, this mentality is nothing new, many parents have these thoughts and aspirations. But when I wondered if they had considered having her play volleyball, they looked at me like I was foreign and scoffed at volleyball as a "recreation" sport. I want to point out that this family is of african american descent. I make this distinction because it's something I've noticed throughout my years (as a person of color). I tried to reason with them that volleyball is an incredible sport with endless opportunity at the college level for women. And, more notably, for pure athletically gifted minority women. Volleyball just hasn't made the inroads in general african american culture as other sports and I think it's having a negative effect on the future growth of the sport. It's no secret that African Americans, on average, tend to be more athletically gifted (mostly to do with hereditary and social natural selection, aka slavery). For example, African Americans make up the vast majority of NFL and NBA players.....During the conversation I tried to reason with this family regarding how successful a naturally gifted athlete can be at volleyball, and, more importantly, how highly sought after they are by college coaches. I started mentioning how many top rated recruits barely even touched a volleyball until late middle school or high school. I thought about my list and wondered for a bit. I was then asked by a family what I would do if I was in their position. I said these exact words, "get your daughter, right now at the age of 5, to any coach willing to teach her to set, pass, and defend in the backrow, and that would be one of the best opportunities for her to get a college scholarship." I was sort of shocked by that I said, but I knew I was kind of right. Over 1/3 of the 1st team All Americans in the last 6 years have been of African American descent. Of those 31 selections, only 1 could either pass/set/backrow defend at a high level. Everyone else have been first and foremost front row hitters and blockers. Why is that? Obviously specialization has caused a lot of the disconnect but it seems to be further exacerbated among the African American players. Why is it that we see more and more African Americans littering the top 10 recruit lists and All American lists, but it's almost never for the finer touches of the sport? the passing, the setting, the digging? Even Glass, the lone 1st team All American wasn't rated based on her setting ability coming out of high school. Imagine what she would have looked like if she had solid setting lessons when she was starting middle school? How good could Haley Eckerman be if she spent half as much time passing and defending as she did hitting the ball in her youth? I'd like to to think that all of these outcomes are mere coincidence, but something tells me it's not. I'm not even sure the "finer" touches of the sport among African American players is even unique to volleyball. Almost 70% of the NFL are of African American descent, yet, you go to any best quarterback lists and you will frequently find names like Manning, Brees, Romo, Brady, Rodgers, Rivers, with the occasional mention of an African American player like Wilson, but still it's pretty non-African American dominate when it comes to high profile/high successful QB's in the NFL. Anyway, just thought I'd share Also, I don't think the ability to play in the back row is mutually exclusive to race. There are plenty of white girls who can't play in the back row, too, and the scope of your argument is purely limited to a narrow trend in the NCAA. Worldwide, there are liberos, passers and diggers of color, especially in the men's game. Regardless of the 5-year old's race, every child with an interest in volleyball should be encouraged to become a six-rotation player.
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Post by Wolfgang on Jan 6, 2015 11:21:43 GMT -5
I love discussions on race because I truly believe you can distill a person's essence from their cultural make-up and skin color. To be able to see a person one-dimensionally is a true gift.
Some thoughts:
I didn't know until today that ay2013 was a person of color. I used to picture an angry white guy with an umbrella.
Kim Willoughby, an African-American, was one of the best passers in the history of Hawaii volleyball.
I get more excited when I see African-Americans on my favorite teams. Mentally, I see a higher probability of success for African-American girls than your typical pale-skinned white girl. When I see a white girl on my favorite teams, I always think it's a toss-up whether she excels or not. And also, the typical white girl tends to like crap music and have really bad taste in boyfriends.
You may not believe me but when I saw Venus and Serena Williams for the first time during their youth, I thought they would eventually dominate the sport.
Finally, what is it with UNLnotNU's love of caps?!?!
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Post by #skoskers on Jan 6, 2015 11:25:33 GMT -5
Where to even begin… First, Ay, it’s too bad that you had to hate on Texas fans, Kentucky, and John Cook to attempt to make a point about race in volleyball. Prefacing your thread as an “honest” discussion by first bashing on coaches, fans, and programs was the first red flag I noted. It’s too bad that the people who actually want to discuss race relations and race in athletics have to first read through such a diatribe. (IDGAF if people are offended by caps lock) PEOPLE WHO REALLY BELIEVE THAT BLACKS ARE ATHLETIC BECAUSE OF THE INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY ARE UNINFORMED, AND YOUR PSEUDO-SCIENTIFIC EXPLANATIONS FOR BLACK SUCCESS IN SPORTS SUPPLEMENTS LONG-HELD CULTURAL CONVICTIONS. THE HISTORICAL ROMANCE WITH SLAVERY AND THE PERSISTENT MISUSES OF RACIAL SCIENCE HAVE SERVED PERMANENT NOTICE OF WHAT CAN HAPPEN WHEN AN “INTELLECTUAL” AND “HONEST” INTEREST IN HUMAN DIFFERENCES HARDENS INTO AN OBSESSION BASED ON ETHNICITY OR RACE. Ethnic academia disagrees with the notion that slavery made blacks better athletes. If this were the case, why don’t we see Jews dominating sports, because they too were slaves for centuries? Anthropologists, ethnographers, and biologists have debunked the idea that slavery gifted athletic prowess to Blacks. In my eyes, and many others, socio-economics plays a larger role in shaping the trends of race in athletics, especially volleyball. For many Blacks, who historically and contemporarily have had fewer academic resources to succeed and live the supposed American dream, sports have been their means of access into high incomes, success, and entry into the institutions dominated and controlled by whites. The situation for inner-city schools isn’t getting better, either, so expect to see more Blacks in higher education via athletic scholarship, given that affirmative action programs are sadly becoming endangered in universities. In a Native studies course I took, many speakers pointed out how antiquated theories that Natives are innately dumber and have less intellectual capacity to succeed have been detrimental to the Native community, because it’s not only false and degrading, but it’s completely side stepping a more meaningful conversation. To these guest speakers, they believe that Native American youth don’t have heroes from their community, which means the youth don’t have anyone to idolize or aspire to become, which leads to higher drop-out, incarceration, and alcohol-abuse rates. Whereas whites have a long history of politicians, athletes, entertainers, and CEOs to admire, Blacks are limited to one Black president and a huuuuge slew of athletes and entertainers. Also, your rhetoric makes you seem unsympathetic to Blacks in the first place. Saying that they are “littering the top 10 recruit lists” seems really insensitive, especially for someone who had to first point out that he has African American friends, and, therefore, comes from an “honest” place to discuss these important issues. Don’t get me wrong. I don’t consider the discussion of race and athletics to be taboo. I feel people should discuss these issues. However, I am whole-heartedly against your selfish prefacing paragraph and the idea that slavery made Blacks athletic. I really did write this as a legit discussion...if my lame attempt at witty humor in the 1st paragraph is that much of a distraction, I'll remove it Witty humor? You feel that your demonstrated dislike for people, programs, and fans is humorous or witty? There's certainly a time and place to voice your opinion, Ay; I'm not trying to stifle you. I just don't think it was appropriate in a thread that's supposed to engage everyone in an "honest" conversation about race.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2015 11:30:31 GMT -5
Jimmy the Greek is dead, but I'll ask him.
Hmmm. No comment.
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Post by play2win on Jan 6, 2015 11:32:13 GMT -5
I agree with most of the comments shared so far. I've made the same observations over the years of watching high school, club, and college volleyball. A setter/libero/DS of color (particularly Black) is about as rare as a Black college or NFL quarterback in the 80's and 90's. As a Black mom of two athletes, here are my thoughts, in no particular order.
Parallel basketball within club volleyball, and the travel element is where the similarities end.
My daughter had never seen a volleyball court outside of tv until the summer before 9th grade. She basically woke up one day and decided she wanted to go to volleyball camp. She loved the game & was good at it. But none of her friends (of color) could understand it. Her high school was known for its track & field and basketball teams, so why would a talented athlete, who also happens to be Black, not participate in the two sports that would bring her the most recognition and most certainly send her to state? Even my husband and his family thought it was a "waste of her talents". I don't think their way of thinking was wrong, just culturally motivated. But she knew what she wanted. That first season she was a 6 rotation OH for a JV team that did very well, which did wonders for her confidence going into club tryouts.
Right about now is when I got the shock of a lifetime after getting the club registration packet. $3,000 tuitio to play volleyball!!?? And the coaches get paid? Team dinners? Snack mom? Top-notch hotels? Air fares?? I wanted to turn & run on day one! As I said earlier, it wasn't that we COULDN'T pay, we just didn't think we SHOULD, especially when compared to our years of experience with AAU basketball. Either way, this is the point when many potential club athletes are lost, for either socio or economical reasons. But we stayed.
Her first year of club ball, there were 3 teams in her age group. She was on the "A" team and the only Black girl among a group of about 35-40 athletes. Many kids (including me years before) would have been too uncomfortable to continue. But she stayed, and I stayed right there with her. She was immediately put on the right side and stayed there for four years. She was learning to do what she had seen so many Black college players do on tv. She had no reason to question it or be unhappy. Fast forward to college. After four years in the front row only, she got a free education at an excellent school, and had a nice career in a mid-major conference, with a title and a ring as her parting gift. So everyone's happy right? It was only recently that she verbalized how crazy it sounds to be a college volleyball player, not even 5'10", and be a go-to pin hitter with zero time in the back row. People didn't even notice how "short" she was until her career was over.
I said all of that to say this... - Finances are a factor in club volleyball. Some families can't pay. Other families consider it a waste of money, when their daughters can play basketball or run track for a fraction of the cost, and have a legitimate shot at a free college education. - Black setters and defenders in volleyball are a rarity (I believe) for two main reasons - 1) if they have any length to them at all, their inherent athletic abilities are better utilized to hit and block, 2) club coaches are amazed at those inherent athletic abilities, and would much rather funnel those skills toward hitting and blocking.
These are my opinions, based on personal experience and observations. I'm not saying there are absolutely no athletes of color who are good setters or defenders in volleyball. I'm just saying they are rare. And my opinions and comments are not meant to be offensive. I would love to see a change, and I'm sure it will happen. But it's certainly not going to start at the college level. So you parents and coaches of 10, 11, and 12-year-olds, we're counting on you! ;-)
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Post by #skoskers on Jan 6, 2015 11:32:32 GMT -5
I love discussions on race because I truly believe you can distill a person's essence from their cultural make-up and skin color. To be able to see a person one-dimensionally is a true gift. Some thoughts: I didn't know until today that ay2013 was a person of color. I used to picture an angry white guy with an umbrella. Kim Willoughby, an African-American, was one of the best passers in the history of Hawaii volleyball. I get more excited when I see African-Americans on my favorite teams. Mentally, I see a higher probability of success for African-American girls than your typical pale-skinned white girl. When I see a white girl on my favorite teams, I always think it's a toss-up whether she excels or not. And also, the typical white girl tends to like crap music and have really bad taste in boyfriends. You may not believe me but when I saw Venus and Serena Williams for the first time during their youth, I thought they would eventually dominate the sport. Finally, what is it with UNLnotNU's love of caps?!?! I always imagined Ay as an Asian.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2015 11:33:02 GMT -5
By the way, I think a huge part of this is media exposure. Socio-economic factors are at work, too, but kids like to do what they see. So, if, traditionally, you're not exposed to the sport, it's that much harder to generate interest.
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Post by ay2013 on Jan 6, 2015 11:33:34 GMT -5
ok, ok....another season of womens volleyball is over and we have much of the same: Russ Rose continues his fast approaching god like status, the RPI continues to hate on most western conferences, Washington plays it's worse when it matters the most, "parity" seems to be the new trendy word, but at the end of the day it's the same usual suspects, Texas fans are still super annoying, the NCAA is hellbent on having some sort of post season site in the miserable great state of Kentucky year after year, Mick Haley should retire, The Big 10 has further inked itself as THE conference for this current decade, John Cook is still a big douche bag, the Pac-12 continues to grasp as whatever straws it can and is stuck in it's 90's and 2000's glory days, Hawaii fans would rather die than admit that their program is becoming irrelevant on the elite national scene, and the mens volleyball season just isn't fun. So lets talk about something more thought provoking. (disclaimer- this topic makes assumptions about race and therefore could offend certain posters. If you feel like this may be you, don't read any further) The other day I had an interesting conversation with some friends of mine. I was at a holiday party and during a conversation I had with a couple, I learned that their 5 year old daughter is very athletically gifted. She is already 4'1'' which is pretty tall for a 5 year old, well built, and her parents were athletes throughout college (football and basketball). Needless to say, she has a lot going for her genetically. The parents were talking about the sports she's in right now, namely t-ball, soccer, and basketball. I asked them if they saw any sort of legit future for their daughter in sports or if they are doing all these activities more for pleasure. They were pretty certain that she was athletically gifted and "with the right motivation" she could get a college scholarship in sports. Obviously, this mentality is nothing new, many parents have these thoughts and aspirations. But when I wondered if they had considered having her play volleyball, they looked at me like I was foreign and scoffed at volleyball as a "recreation" sport. I want to point out that this family is of african american descent. I make this distinction because it's something I've noticed throughout my years (as a person of color). I tried to reason with them that volleyball is an incredible sport with endless opportunity at the college level for women. And, more notably, for pure athletically gifted minority women. Volleyball just hasn't made the inroads in general african american culture as other sports and I think it's having a negative effect on the future growth of the sport. It's no secret that African Americans, on average, tend to be more athletically gifted (mostly to do with hereditary and social natural selection, aka slavery). For example, African Americans make up the vast majority of NFL and NBA players.....During the conversation I tried to reason with this family regarding how successful a naturally gifted athlete can be at volleyball, and, more importantly, how highly sought after they are by college coaches. I started mentioning how many top rated recruits barely even touched a volleyball until late middle school or high school. I thought about my list and wondered for a bit. I was then asked by a family what I would do if I was in their position. I said these exact words, "get your daughter, right now at the age of 5, to any coach willing to teach her to set, pass, and defend in the backrow, and that would be one of the best opportunities for her to get a college scholarship." I was sort of shocked by that I said, but I knew I was kind of right. Over 1/3 of the 1st team All Americans in the last 6 years have been of African American descent. Of those 31 selections, only 1 could either pass/set/backrow defend at a high level. Everyone else have been first and foremost front row hitters and blockers. Why is that? Obviously specialization has caused a lot of the disconnect but it seems to be further exacerbated among the African American players. Why is it that we see more and more African Americans littering the top 10 recruit lists and All American lists, but it's almost never for the finer touches of the sport? the passing, the setting, the digging? Even Glass, the lone 1st team All American wasn't rated based on her setting ability coming out of high school. Imagine what she would have looked like if she had solid setting lessons when she was starting middle school? How good could Haley Eckerman be if she spent half as much time passing and defending as she did hitting the ball in her youth? I'd like to to think that all of these outcomes are mere coincidence, but something tells me it's not. I'm not even sure the "finer" touches of the sport among African American players is even unique to volleyball. Almost 70% of the NFL are of African American descent, yet, you go to any best quarterback lists and you will frequently find names like Manning, Brees, Romo, Brady, Rodgers, Rivers, with the occasional mention of an African American player like Wilson, but still it's pretty non-African American dominate when it comes to high profile/high successful QB's in the NFL. Anyway, just thought I'd share Also, I don't think the ability to play in the back row is mutually exclusive to race. There are plenty of white girls who can't play in the back row, too, and the scope of your argument is purely limited to a narrow trend in the NCAA. Worldwide, there are liberos, passers and diggers of color, especially in the men's game. Regardless of the 5-year old's race, every child with an interest in volleyball should be encouraged to become a six-rotation player. of course it isn't, it's a combination of natural ability and early training.
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Post by VolleyTX on Jan 6, 2015 11:39:55 GMT -5
Great topic..... and it annoys the !!!!###$$$!!! out of me that people get hung up on all the non-related elements of the first post. Can't we all just be mature enough to ignore that stuff and focus on the real topic?
Just to add my own personal experience with this: I play in an adult league every Monday evening that starts at 8:30. When we get to the club, there are volleyball club teams practicing before my league on four separate courts. I'm guessing the age range of the girls to be between 8 and 14. I'm guessing there are 50+ girls on these courts.... Maybe a few more white girls than black.... but pretty evenly split. While I'm stretching, I get to watch the last 10-15 minutes of their practice. General observations:
1. ALL of the top attackers and blockers are black. 2. ALL the setters are white. 3. The coaches criticisms/critiques are interesting to watch. I rarely see them critiquing black girls ball control.... only hitting and blocking. vice versa for most of the white girls. It is as if the coaches don't expect the black girls to ever become good ball control players..... just like they don't expect the white girls to become good attackers and blockers. They all do the same drills, but expectations out of those drills are different.
I do question how much this has to do about race. Or... is this simply a matter that the black girls in the club just happen to be taller. Is this simply a stature issue? Regardless of the real issue.... it does bug me to see coaches that are 1/2 hearted about developing well rounded volleyball players. It is like they only enjoy coaching the strengths of the players.
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