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Post by FUBAR on May 27, 2015 22:34:41 GMT -5
When you call a young lady a "Fu@#ing Retard" you should be fired. It's not just a matter of the new recruits not meshing with his "style". It either didn't happen, and she's just making the whole thing up, or he should be fired. Plain and simple. Disgraceful use of language and lack of sensitivity on par with the SAE incident at OU. Having dealt directly with similar issues before, and watching others from just outside, I can say that your premise that "it either didn't happen, and she's just making the whole thing up, or he should be fired" is not really the case. People's memories of these things are rarely exactly what actually happened. I've been a part of an investigation where the accuser completely changed the venue where the incident happened - and even after we proved where the incident happened the accuser was sure they had remembered correctly. It is also common for emotional people to hear something different that what was actually said. And these people are being honest about what they heard, they were just in a state where their brain heard the worst possible thing instead of what was actually said. Then there is the issue that most people tell an outsider exactly what they want the outsider to hear. This goes for both the accuser and the accused. A person will almost always make them self appear in the best possible light. People will do the same for people they are sympathetic to. You have to take that into account when you are listening to people's complaints. If there were video similar to the Mike Rice video I'm sure everyone would agree that the coach should be fired. If that damning video existed I feel pretty good that it would have come out. Hiding the Rice video was disastrous for Rutgers, and a volleyball coach is far more expendable than a basketball coach! It is certainly possible that it was destroyed, but without it all I have is the HBO show and what is in this thread. Nothing in that is here is conclusive in any way. Is there ever a time where a coach would be justified in using the phrase "fu@#ing retarded?" I can think of at least one. Remember that a college coach is involved, to some degree, with every aspect of a student-athlete's life. Academics are in play, and behavior away from the gym can fall under a coach's responsibility. If the coach is in the office or locker room discussing a pattern of unacceptable behavior "fu@#ing retarded" may be a crude, but accurate description of the behavior. Sometimes using shocking language to get a person's attention and get them to change is preferable to disassociating with that person. It is sometimes worth a shot! Before you come with "come on FUBAR, these aren't inner city State U. kids, these are Wake Forest kids" - STOP! If you think your (hypothetical) daughter would NEVER do something that deserved such language, you have about a 50-50 chance of being right. Well, if she is an athlete probably more like 40-60. I've seen normally great kids - 4.0 academic scholarship award winners, polite, church going kids - do some unfathomable things when they think they can get away with it! Bad behavior is the norm around college campus' in this day and age, and athletes slightly more so than the general population. This is a sample of the academic literature on the subject: www.webpages.uidaho.edu/center_for_ethics/research_fact_sheet.htmSo, no those two words do not automatically mean the coach should be fired in my mind. Location, context, background and intent are all a part of judging something like this. There is not nearly enough info in the HBO show and this thread for a reasonable person to make a judgement in this particular case. If a Mike Rice type situation existed Wake Forest's administration has every interest in protecting their student-athletes from abuse. They have relatively little invested in this coach at this point in time. The administrators own jobs, reputations, the reputation of the school, the goodwill of the current student-athletes, and investigative reporting like HBO Real Sports & ESPN's OTL all make it in administration's interest to stop abuse from happening. I don't know anyone in this thread's connection to the Wake situation. Maybe they have more info than they are putting here. But if all you have is what someone you trust is telling you, remember that they are telling you exactly what they want you to hear. If they did engage in behavior that precipitated this the only way you will hear about it is if there is a public police report! Because of privacy laws, even the school officials may not be able to tell you all they know about the event.
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Post by onfiya on May 28, 2015 12:05:42 GMT -5
Fubar, you bring up some very valid points. No doubt we don't know the whole story, and even the folks directly involved may remember the events in a totally different manner, while being totally honest and forthcoming. My frustration is this; we can always make excuses for abusive behavior. She had it coming, right?
HBO Real Sports didn't set out to destroy this guy. A poor little, totally innocent by-stander that ended up in their mean HBO crosshairs? No, his behavior thrust him directly in to their story. They uncovered a story line that persists in college athletics of coaches abusing their players, which is leading to anxiety, depression and even suicide in several cases. All while playing the games they love? I'm as hard-nosed and old school tough guy as there is when it comes to sports. Never had a coach that wasn't abusive in some form or another. Still, I am thankful for many of the life lessons that those same men taught me. But the fact that there is more abuse and pressure associated with being a college athlete than any other field of employment in the United States by a landslide is a big problem. Exponentially more than a stock trader and members of the military. There is no place for that in sports. Especially to young ladies by a male, and the situation at Wake is a black eye to women, the university, the game of volleyball and good coaches everywhere.
I live in Texas where football is king. The stories of abusive behavior to athletes are legendary! I was surprised to find out several years ago that the coaching staff at our local high school coaches in a manner of technically teaching the game, with focus on accountibility of the players to one another, and the preparation for life aspects of the game, in a positive environment, rather than the drill sergeant, red in the face, hard ass aproach. And guess what...It's one of the most successful programs in the state. It can be done.
Here are a few clips if you haven't seen the HBO piece and one on the Wake fiasco:
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Post by vballwest on May 28, 2015 13:23:12 GMT -5
Never had a coach that wasn't abusive is some form or another. I still am thankful for many of the life lessons that those same men taught me. But the fact that there is more abuse and pressure associated with being a college athlete than any other field of employment in the United States by a landslide is a big problem. Exponentially more than a stock trader and members of the military. There is no place for that in sports. Especially to young ladies by a male, and the situation at Wake is a black eye to women, the university, the game of volleyball and good coaches everywhere.
So true. There are many of us who learned volleyball and life due to the influence of some great coaches.
Surely, there are players and teams experiencing this NOW. Maybe some need a few years to gather perspective.
I had tough coaches too -- really tough. But, in my opinion, it was not abusive. The value of mutual respect was always upheld. My best coaches were also great LEADERS and they had typically been mentored by great leaders. We absolutely knew we were part of something special.
A coach who is also a leader intercepts threats to mutual respect before damage is done. They don't participate in it, they don't tolerate it, and they go out of their way to communicate in ways that combat it.
Lots of college players express frustration to their parents -- most listen and advise their kids to learn from the situation and be grateful for the opportunity they've been given.
There are, however, times when "mutual respect" ceases to exist and the relationship between a player and coach has been damaged in ways that cannot be repaired. What are the life lessons then?
Learn how to finish well even if it's no longer enjoyable to play? Be thankful for the scholarship and stick it out?
There is plenty of blame to share in these situations, but I also find myself wondering about the quality of leadership involved.
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Post by vbfamm on Jun 4, 2015 10:03:31 GMT -5
WF volleyball should be finishing a trip to Nicaragua right now but players were reluctant to travel with Ken nor did parents want their daughters leaving the country with Ken in charge. The trip was cancelled.
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Post by onfiya on Jun 4, 2015 15:05:12 GMT -5
Wow! If this is true, how sad. Way to kill a great experience for those girls. Are they going to travel during the season or just forfeit their road games too? Should that not send up huge red flags to the university?! Can't say that I blame Mom and Dad though.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2015 19:02:27 GMT -5
Which episode is it?
I have coached against Ken (and yes we beat them). Whines a lot but always thought he was just a louder than normal guy. This is shocking.
One thing is for sure. As college coaches we have to stay humble and remember that without the kids we are not coaches.
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Post by InTheKnow on Jun 4, 2015 19:34:18 GMT -5
Which episode is it? I have coached against Ken (and yes we beat them). Whines a lot but always thought he was just a louder than normal guy. This is shocking. One thing is for sure. As college coaches we have to stay humble and remember that without the kids we are not coaches. Or spread rumors.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2015 19:38:24 GMT -5
Which episode is it? I have coached against Ken (and yes we beat them). Whines a lot but always thought he was just a louder than normal guy. This is shocking. One thing is for sure. As college coaches we have to stay humble and remember that without the kids we are not coaches. Or spread rumors. What? Care to elaborate
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jcvb
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Post by jcvb on Jun 5, 2015 13:53:10 GMT -5
I'm kind of surprised that this isn't getting more attention on this board. Is it a non-issue and HBO just blew it up? Is it a dead issue? Is it too sensitive a subject and people are walking on eggshells about this? I mean, most nationally televised stories about relatively high profile coaches (at least considering Wake's conference affiliation, it's high profile) allegedly abusing players in one way or another seem to become pretty big news. This one, not so much. I'm truly not trying to stir anything up here. Just curious as to why this one seems to have elicited such a relatively tame response from the VB community on here.
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Post by Phaedrus on Jun 5, 2015 14:05:31 GMT -5
I think it is great that HBO was able to bring so many new volleyball lovers from out from under the rocks to comment on this story.
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Post by onfiya on Jun 5, 2015 14:17:07 GMT -5
I think it is great that HBO was able to bring so many new volleyball lovers from out from under the rocks to comment on this story. Oh, "I have 9,400 VT posts, so I know so much more than you about volleyball." That would indicate that YOU live under a rock (albeit with wi-fi) more than to the contrary. The idea that because you are a frequent chatboard user, it somehow makes you more qualified to comment on any issue related to volleyball is absurd. I'm pretty sure that the Wake players have never posted on here, but I guess you would refer to them as, new volleyball lovers that live under a rock, completely lacking a valid opinion as well?
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Post by jcvball22 on Jun 5, 2015 14:33:35 GMT -5
I think it is great that HBO was able to bring so many new volleyball lovers from out from under the rocks to comment on this story. Oh, "I have 9,400 VT posts, so I know so much more than you about volleyball." That would indicate that YOU live under a rock (albeit with wi-fi) more than to the contrary. The idea that because you are a frequent chatboard user, it somehow makes you more qualified to comment on any issue related to volleyball is absurd. I'm pretty sure that the Wake players have never posted on here, but I guess you would refer to them as, new volleyball lovers that live under a rock, completely lacking a valid opinion as well? Well, that isn't what qualifies him to comment. They fact that he actually knows the sport really well qualifies him to comment. However, on the point of Wake Forest, in today's current climate and considering all the crap that went down with Rutgers Basketball, there is no doubt that the Administration did their due diligence with respect to this story. Coaches are under a microscope and will get fired for nearly any impropriety. If the allegations by these players had been substantiated, that staff would be out of a job. That did not happen. They rescheduled the trip to Nicaragua for a later date because final arrangements needed to be made while the administration was checking on this story. Plain and simple, a prudent move by the staff until all things were settled. A lot of issues arise when a new coach takes over a program, especially when the previous coach left of their own accord and the new coach's style is really different from the previous leadership.
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Post by onfiya on Jun 5, 2015 14:38:56 GMT -5
I guess all 11 of them are just making it up, huh?! Just a difference in coaching styles...
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Post by knowitall on Jun 5, 2015 14:58:41 GMT -5
If 11 players, and their parents felt like they were being abused or mistreated, then why are they still there?
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Post by InTheKnow on Jun 5, 2015 15:05:12 GMT -5
Like JC said, the Admin did an investigation and the coach was cleared. It's done. You are just spinning your wheels begging for more people to join your cause. May want to move on because it's done.
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