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Post by Phaedrus on Aug 22, 2016 17:29:41 GMT -5
A couple of things. With the US squad she was pretty much cajoling the players, pulling them along, motivating them. While she did that with the Chinese team she seemed a bit more stern, more demanding. This was all gleaned from what bits of the timeouts I was able to pickup. Her demeanor was definitely different. Not sure if she is reacting to the cultural difference or to the youth of her players this go around.
Tactically she was magnificent in both Olympics. It totally cracked me up when Sunderland and Barnett questioned her many subs and moves. The woman knows her stuff, leave her alone. She made a lot of moves based on experience and gut feel, and she was successful.
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Post by Wolfgang on Aug 22, 2016 18:28:16 GMT -5
Due to language and cultural "barriers," I think a person who's competent in one culture/language may seem incompetent in another culture/language. I'm not suggesting Lang Ping was incompetent as the USA head coach -- far from it. Hell, she won the silver! In fact, I don't know Lang Ping at all. But I wonder if she was probably more comfortable training and motivating other Chinese athletes than American athletes.
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Post by ironhammer on Aug 22, 2016 19:43:54 GMT -5
Due to language and cultural "barriers," I think a person who's competent in one culture/language may seem incompetent in another culture/language. I'm not suggesting Lang Ping was incompetent as the USA head coach -- far from it. Hell, she won the silver! In fact, I don't know Lang Ping at all. But I wonder if she was probably more comfortable training and motivating other Chinese athletes than American athletes. Lang Ping is not adopting a strictly "Chinese" or "Western" approach to coaching. Its in fact a hybrid approach. Specifically, she brought Western coaching techniques to China, modifying it to fit into the context of the Chinese environment. Lang moved to the US to work at the University of New Mexico in the late 80's. She learnt American coaching methods there and later used it as a coach in Italy. So Lang's coaching style takes what she considers to be the best elements from her native China and America to create her unique approach. |
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Post by Phaedrus on Aug 22, 2016 21:58:44 GMT -5
It is the JLP approach. Let's leave it at that. It's silly to quibble because I am sure she has thought about her philosophy and has been affected by Italy and Turkey as well. Her approach was kind of a shock to the Chines players in her first go around in China, the players couldn't believe she was so not authoritarian and actually cared about her players.
BTW, she was an assistant for Laurel Iverson and John Kessel at UNM.
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Post by volleyguy on Aug 22, 2016 22:32:37 GMT -5
Lang Ping in Italy was not the evolved Lang Ping of today. With her Italian team, she was strict, authoritarian and somewhat militaristic in her approach. She required her players to walk lock-step in unison, she yelled and berated and punished. She also won with that team.
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Post by ironhammer on Aug 22, 2016 22:39:47 GMT -5
Lang Ping in Italy was not the evolved Lang Ping of today. With her Italian team, she was strict, authoritarian and somewhat militaristic in her approach. She required her players to walk lock-step in unison, she yelled and berated and punished. She also won with that team. Like I said, she retained elements of her Chinese style. But even in Italy then, she had already absorbed some Western coaching methods. While she governed with a strict authoritarian Chinese method, she also used Western techniques. Its a hybrid approach. |
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Post by Pipe Attack on Aug 22, 2016 22:40:31 GMT -5
A couple of things. With the US squad she was pretty much cajoling the players, pulling them along, motivating them. While she did that with the Chinese team she seemed a bit more stern, more demanding. This was all gleaned from what bits of the timeouts I was able to pickup. Her demeanor was definitely different. Not sure if she is reacting to the cultural difference or to the youth of her players this go around. Tactically she was magnificent in both Olympics. It totally cracked me up when Sunderland and Barnett questioned her many subs and moves. The woman knows her stuff, leave her alone. She made a lot of moves based on experience and gut feel, and she was successful. Yes! I remember reading an article where she talked about the cultural differences. Forgot what was exactly said but she did mention of having to alter approach as US players are a bit more sensitive (something along those lines). was more of an observation than a critique .. but something she had to take into consideration. And probably what u picked up on when contrasting those time outs |
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Post by nativevolley on Aug 23, 2016 5:24:50 GMT -5
I am so happy for her. She is one of my favorite coaches.
We had a foreign exchange student from China last year. I had her translate for me during timeouts. lol
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Post by ironhammer on Aug 23, 2016 22:11:26 GMT -5
This talk of coaching culture brings back memories of my readings on the rise of Asian (vs Western) volleyball.
I don't know how many of you are familiar or is interested in international volleyball history, but China's traditional "authoritarian" coaching style, at least in volleyball, stems from Japan. There was a time in the 60's and 70's when Japan was a volleyball powerhouse that competed with the Soviet Union for the top honors in international competition. Japan was coached by Hirobumi Daimatsu, a former commander in the Imperial Japanese Army and a brutal and unforgiving taskmaster. His training regime was literally physical and mental torture. The players would train from early in the afternoon to 2 or 3 in the wee early morning hours. They were given only short 15 minutes breaks in-between and no holidays or days off. All the while Daimatsu would berate and yell at the players constantly for their perceived weaknesses, both in technique and in personality.
Daimatsu made no apology for his extreme methods, he felt the team needed that to win against the Russians. And indeed they did, winning the 1964 Olympics Gold against them, earning the Japanese team the nickname, the "Oriental Witches". The Japanese became known for their reception and digging prowess that compensated for their height disadvantage.
Later on, Daimatsu and team captain Masae Kasai went over to China to set up the volleyball program over there. But you'll be hard-pressed to hear any acknowledgement from China for any credit to the Japanese, given the tense state of Sino-Japanese relations at the moment.
It was in that kind of environment that Lang Ping grew up and learnt the "stern and demanding" coaching method. But as volleyball evolved and increasing emphasis placed on scientific approaches to coaching, Lang realized the drawbacks of the traditional authoritarian approach. A more scientific approach was required, and she tried to marry that with the toughness of the Chinese coaching style.
Was that successful? For a long a while, it was an open question. The sport bureaucracy in China limited the room for freedom for Lang during her first stint as national coach. It was only in 2013, when China was on the ropes that Lang was finally given the freedom to pursue her style of coaching unimpeded by bureaucratic politics. And the result this time was gold.
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Post by Phaedrus on Aug 24, 2016 10:10:55 GMT -5
This talk of coaching culture brings back memories of my readings on the rise of Asian (vs Western) volleyball. I don't know how many of you are familiar or is interested in international volleyball history, but China's traditional "authoritarian" coaching style, at least in volleyball, stems from Japan. There was a time in the 60's and 70's when Japan was a volleyball powerhouse that competed with the Soviet Union for the top honors in international competition. Japan was coached by Hirobumi Daimatsu, a former commander in the Imperial Japanese Army and a brutal and unforgiving taskmaster. His training regime was literally physical and mental torture. The players would train from early in the afternoon to 2 or 3 in the wee early morning hours. There were given only short 15 minutes breaks in-between and no holidays or days off. All the while Daimatsu would berate and yell at the players constantly for their perceived weaknesses, both in technique and in personality. Daimatsu made no apology for his extreme methods, he felt the team needed that to win against the Russians. And indeed they did, winning the 1964 Olympics Gold against them, earning the Japanese team the nickname, the "Oriental Witches". The Japanese became known for their reception and digging prowess that compensated for their height disadvantage. Later on, Daimatsu and team captain Masae Kasai went over to China to set up the volleyball program over there. But you'll be hard-pressed to hear any acknowledgement from China for any credit to the Japanese, given the tense state of Sino-Japanese relations at the moment. It was in that kind of environment that Lang Ping grew up and learnt the "stern and demanding" coaching method. But as volleyball evolved and increasing emphasis placed on scientific approaches to coaching, Lang realized the drawbacks of the traditional authoritarian approach. A more scientific approach was required, and she tried to marry that with the toughness of the Chinese coaching style. Was that successful? For a long a while, it was an open question. The sport bureaucracy in China limited the room for freedom for Lang during her first stint as national coach. It was only in 2013, when China was on the ropes that Lang was finally given the freedom to pursue her style of coaching unimpeded by bureaucratic politics. And the result this time was gold. Many have seen The Pit drill from the Olympics coverage from the 1976 Olympics, where the coach would just beat balls at the players. That is the style, not sure if the coach in the footage is Daihmatsu. There was a male counterpart in Matsudaira, he'd written a book on his training method that was translated. I'd found it in some college libraries. |
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Post by ironhammer on Aug 24, 2016 20:54:16 GMT -5
This talk of coaching culture brings back memories of my readings on the rise of Asian (vs Western) volleyball. I don't know how many of you are familiar or is interested in international volleyball history, but China's traditional "authoritarian" coaching style, at least in volleyball, stems from Japan. There was a time in the 60's and 70's when Japan was a volleyball powerhouse that competed with the Soviet Union for the top honors in international competition. Japan was coached by Hirobumi Daimatsu, a former commander in the Imperial Japanese Army and a brutal and unforgiving taskmaster. His training regime was literally physical and mental torture. The players would train from early in the afternoon to 2 or 3 in the wee early morning hours. There were given only short 15 minutes breaks in-between and no holidays or days off. All the while Daimatsu would berate and yell at the players constantly for their perceived weaknesses, both in technique and in personality. Daimatsu made no apology for his extreme methods, he felt the team needed that to win against the Russians. And indeed they did, winning the 1964 Olympics Gold against them, earning the Japanese team the nickname, the "Oriental Witches". The Japanese became known for their reception and digging prowess that compensated for their height disadvantage. Later on, Daimatsu and team captain Masae Kasai went over to China to set up the volleyball program over there. But you'll be hard-pressed to hear any acknowledgement from China for any credit to the Japanese, given the tense state of Sino-Japanese relations at the moment. It was in that kind of environment that Lang Ping grew up and learnt the "stern and demanding" coaching method. But as volleyball evolved and increasing emphasis placed on scientific approaches to coaching, Lang realized the drawbacks of the traditional authoritarian approach. A more scientific approach was required, and she tried to marry that with the toughness of the Chinese coaching style. Was that successful? For a long a while, it was an open question. The sport bureaucracy in China limited the room for freedom for Lang during her first stint as national coach. It was only in 2013, when China was on the ropes that Lang was finally given the freedom to pursue her style of coaching unimpeded by bureaucratic politics. And the result this time was gold. Many have seen The Pit drill from the Olympics coverage from the 1976 Olympics, where the coach would just beat balls at the players. That is the style, not sure if the coach in the footage is Daihmatsu. There was a male counterpart in Matsudaira, he'd written a book on his training method that was translated. I'd found it in some college libraries. Yup, that was how they did it. Nowadays, I think the Japanese themselves no longer adhere so strictly to Daihmatsu's coaching techniques. But they probably still retain that sort of fighting spirit espoused by him. As for China today, volleyball is likely not the area with the harshest training regime within the Chinese sport system (although that is very much a relative term, you definitely can't call volleyball training easy and relaxing in China, not by a long shot). In areas such as diving, table tennis and gymnastics, the kids undergo even harsher training. Not just the sport, but every part of their lives are strictly controlled and regimented. They don't see their parents for months on end. They give up on education and childhood activities. All for a shot for glory at the Olympics. And I'm told by my Chinese friends that more and more Chinese are starting to question the brutal nature of this sport system. For the many thousands of little kids plucked by the government and placed into their sport academies, only a tiny group, the cream of the crop, is even considered for a Olympic spot. The rest are cut down by injuries, psychologically damaged or simply weren't good enough to be considered. And because they didn't received much in the way of proper education, they are left without the skills and knowledge to function in the broader society. At least in Chinese volleyball, a number of players do have college education and the teams do encourage their players to keep studying. Their NT setter, Wei Qiuyue, has a master degree. The captain, Hui Ruoqi, is also studying for a master degree. Or at least that is what I've been told by Chinese fans. |
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Post by Phaedrus on Aug 26, 2016 9:25:00 GMT -5
Many have seen The Pit drill from the Olympics coverage from the 1976 Olympics, where the coach would just beat balls at the players. That is the style, not sure if the coach in the footage is Daihmatsu. There was a male counterpart in Matsudaira, he'd written a book on his training method that was translated. I'd found it in some college libraries. Yup, that was how they did it. Nowadays, I think the Japanese themselves no longer adhere so strictly to Daihmatsu's coaching techniques. But they probably still retain that sort of fighting spirit espoused by him. As for China today, volleyball is likely not the area with the harshest training regime within the Chinese sport system (although that is very much a relative term, you definitely can't call volleyball training easy and relaxing in China, not by a long shot). In areas such as diving, table tennis and gymnastics, the kids undergo even harsher training. Not just the sport, but every part of their lives are strictly controlled and regimented. They don't see their parents for months on end. They give up on education and childhood activities. All for a shot for glory at the Olympics. And I'm told by my Chinese friends that more and more Chinese are starting to question the brutal nature of this sport system. For the many thousands of little kids plucked by the government and placed into their sport academies, only a tiny group, the cream of the crop, is even considered for a Olympic spot. The rest are cut down by injuries, psychologically damaged or simply weren't good enough to be considered. And because they didn't received much in the way of proper education, they are left without the skills and knowledge to function in the broader society. At least in Chinese volleyball, a number of players do have college education and the teams do encourage their players to keep studying. Their NT setter, Wei Qiuyue, has a master degree. The captain, Hui Ruoqi, is also studying for a master degree. Or at least that is what I've been told by Chinese fans. About a decade ago, you saw a number of Chinese VB players, both men and women coming to the US. Most are older so they ended up in NAIA although there were some in DI. There are the people who were deemed not good enough for the NT, so they were allowed to come over. Some were good enough but their bodies had been ravaged by the training. I worked with a guy who was bone on bone in both knees, he came over while he was in his mid 20's as a freshman, played in an NAIA school. He would pretty much coast during the match, then he would decide it was time to make a move and then he would go full speed until he was satisfied that the team had the win, then he'd slow down again. He had his own electro stimulation machines and he would hook himself up after every match. The stories he told about his training was gruesome. He also didn't have a decent grounding in the academics, having left the school before he got his degree. |
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Post by ironhammer on Aug 26, 2016 11:10:18 GMT -5
Yup, that was how they did it. Nowadays, I think the Japanese themselves no longer adhere so strictly to Daihmatsu's coaching techniques. But they probably still retain that sort of fighting spirit espoused by him. As for China today, volleyball is likely not the area with the harshest training regime within the Chinese sport system (although that is very much a relative term, you definitely can't call volleyball training easy and relaxing in China, not by a long shot). In areas such as diving, table tennis and gymnastics, the kids undergo even harsher training. Not just the sport, but every part of their lives are strictly controlled and regimented. They don't see their parents for months on end. They give up on education and childhood activities. All for a shot for glory at the Olympics. And I'm told by my Chinese friends that more and more Chinese are starting to question the brutal nature of this sport system. For the many thousands of little kids plucked by the government and placed into their sport academies, only a tiny group, the cream of the crop, is even considered for a Olympic spot. The rest are cut down by injuries, psychologically damaged or simply weren't good enough to be considered. And because they didn't received much in the way of proper education, they are left without the skills and knowledge to function in the broader society. At least in Chinese volleyball, a number of players do have college education and the teams do encourage their players to keep studying. Their NT setter, Wei Qiuyue, has a master degree. The captain, Hui Ruoqi, is also studying for a master degree. Or at least that is what I've been told by Chinese fans. About a decade ago, you saw a number of Chinese VB players, both men and women coming to the US. Most are older so they ended up in NAIA although there were some in DI. There are the people who were deemed not good enough for the NT, so they were allowed to come over. Some were good enough but their bodies had been ravaged by the training. I worked with a guy who was bone on bone in both knees, he came over while he was in his mid 20's as a freshman, played in an NAIA school. He would pretty much coast during the match, then he would decide it was time to make a move and then he would go full speed until he was satisfied that the team had the win, then he'd slow down again. He had his own electro stimulation machines and he would hook himself up after every match. The stories he told about his training was gruesome. He also didn't have a decent grounding in the academics, having left the school before he got his degree. Yup, your story about that guy sounds like a typical example of the sport regime they had in China. Now the Chinese propaganda are blaring non-stop about how China's victory over Serbia will revitalized the "Chinese never-say-die spirit" and portray Jenny Lang Ping as another cog in the sport machine of China. Sounds all nice and well...except that is not entirely correct. As we know from this thread, Lang is not really implementing a "Chinese" training regime. Some credit should be given to..yes...America. Jenny hired an American trainer to be on the national team, She consulted with Western physiotherapists to develop techniques for faster recovery from injuries. She saw the problem with the Chinese players of their bodies prematurely wearing out before they really acquire the experience and mental acuity to become a top-level volleyball player. She wanted to minimized injuries that developed from the old Chinese training methods. In fact, not just training or coaching, but Lang's life story does not fit so neatly into what China wants to present as their version of the coach's story. The reality is that Lang had, in some sense, resisted the system of her native country, because she was fed up with the office politics and bureaucracy that tied her down. How she managed to rebel against the system is recounted in this article: www.hongkongfp.com/2016/08/25/chinese-volleyball-coach-lang-ping-spent-career-thinking-outside-communist-party-box/She also wanted her players to have a future. She encourages them also to study while they train (which is why some NT players now have college degrees or is in the processing of studying for one). She wanted them to have an individual personality and not be a mere robot-like cog in the machine (which is why some of the NT players do non-volleyball public activities, such as photoshoots, etc, to demonstrate their individuality). |
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