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Post by TheSantaBarbarian on Aug 25, 2004 12:06:15 GMT -5
"there are tons of ex-collegiate All-Americans going 0-3 in beach qualifying tournaments"
Maybe the first goal for them should then be to get the tons down to pounds?
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Post by sonofbarcelonabob on Aug 25, 2004 12:25:11 GMT -5
"there are tons of ex-collegiate All-Americans going 0-3 in beach qualifying tournaments" Maybe the first goal for them should then be to get the tons down to pounds? Heh-heh. True dat. |
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Post by Charlie on Aug 25, 2004 12:37:38 GMT -5
Logan Tom and Kerri Walsh playing beach volleyball in Beijing! You heard it first here! Not as long as Misty May is healty. |
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Post by sonofbarcelonabob on Aug 25, 2004 13:11:23 GMT -5
Not as long as Misty May is healty. Yup. Finally a voice of reason in all this "Tom to the Beach in Beijing" hoopla. |
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Post by brybry on Aug 25, 2004 21:38:32 GMT -5
Okay, let's discuss who should go. Obviously Cross-Battle and Phipps. They're far past their prime. 'Nuff said.
I think the US should also drop Ah Moh, Bown and Sykora. Those three have displayed some major shortcomings and are being outshined by their peers on the other side of the net. Ah Moh has some problems w/ accuracy to the outside, she's a blocking liability, and she's not very deceptive (partially Team USA's system's fault). Bown really struggles to terminate and seems to always miss her serve in crunch time. Sykora is best at digging, but what the team really needed was a pinpoint passer and she's not that. All three of them seemed to have gone down a level from 2000. Who is to say that they won't get even worse by 2008.
I think the US should gradually phase out Danielle Scott. Older players tend to be very streaky and have days where they just aren't fired up. I would like to see Scott around for the next Olympics in the way that Mireya Luis was around for Cuba in 2000. Not starting, just occassionally subbing in. I'd like to see some young talent take over her spot. But don't get me wrong, she was one our strengths this Olympics.
I think the US should try to keep Logan Tom, Nnamani, Haneef, and Berg. Even though Tom and Haneef struggled, these two are generally our top scorers and they're very strong athletes. Tom is needed for her ball control, digging and blocking. Her hitting has never been top notch, and I doubt she'll ever become as powerful as a Russian or a Cuban in her spiking, but she's pretty darn potent. Haneef is still improving. She seems like she's very committed and has a great attitude. I think she could be big for 2008. Nnamani could potentially be the one to build the team around. If her hitting continues to improve, she could be All World. Screw her passing skills, let everyone else pass. Build around her. Berg I simply like as a solid back up setter as the US invests in a young new setter.
On the bubble, I say Metcalf. She was solid in this Olympics but does she bring enough positives to warrant keeping her around? She's not a great blocker, passer, or digger. Her hitting is pretty good but nothing to drool over. Personally, I would rather insert an OPP that can put up a strong block, pass nails, and get a couple kills here or there.
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Post by USAFAN on Aug 25, 2004 21:45:40 GMT -5
I would like to see Sykora on the beach, she was a great hitter in high school and has a good vertical. I think that Sykora/Tom would be better than Ah Mow/Tom. In fact Ah Mow is short and probably doesn't have much of an offensive game after all the years of setting. Misty was a very offensive setter and a great hitter even before she got on the beach. And setting wouldn't really matter because even Misty, who was an All AMerican setter, doesn't use her hands on the beach.
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Post by FreeBall on Aug 25, 2004 23:09:01 GMT -5
On the bubble, I say Metcalf. She was solid in this Olympics but does she bring enough positives to warrant keeping her around? She's not a great blocker, passer, or digger. Her hitting is pretty good but nothing to drool over. Personally, I would rather insert an OPP that can put up a strong block, pass nails, and get a couple kills here or there. In my opinion Metcalf is a better all-around player than Haneef and thus brings plenty of positives to warrant keeping her around. Her passing and floor defense are better, her hitting is more consistent over the course of a lengthy tournament, and I don't believe her blocking is that much worse than Haneef's. Haneef's one advantage is that she is 6 inches taller. I think that she got the majority of the playing time at opposite based on this fact and the hope that she will develop into a more dominant player over the next four year cycle. Obviously I did not have the advantage of seeing these players in practice every day leading up to the Olympics and have no way of knowing why Toshi settled on giving most of the playing time to Haneef. However, it seemed that in the pre-Olympic tournaments Metcalf was playing very effectively and probably more consistently than Haneef. As a Husker fan I hope to see Metcalf stick with the National team for the next four years. But, I would not be surprised if she moves on, since she seems to have little chance of beating out Haneef for significant playing time at the opposite position. |
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Post by sonofbarcelonabob on Aug 25, 2004 23:58:56 GMT -5
Biggest problem I see for the next quadrennial is USA has alot of good players and tweener players, but no franchise players, and none in sight.
Tom can be a franchise player, but not in the way most people are thinking. Her role is like Kiraly's was on the '84/'88 team. He was the best all-around player by far on that squad because he did everything well and had no glaring weaknesses. And his greatness was in his passing, defense, and leadership. But he wasn't the big point-scorer making big plays at the net. That was Powers in '84/Timmons in '88 on offense, and Buck with the big blocks. Tom's role is similar, she does everything well. Her defense is usually stellar (although not in this particular tournament) and her passing is usually pretty good, sometimes great. But she cannot be relied upon to be the big stick on offense. She is more of a tool/slime hitter anyway. She gets kills by exploiting the block, and she's great at speeding up or slowing down her swing to throw off the block. But she gets very few clean poundowns straight to the floor.
The USA is really lacking a big, physical presence. Haneef has the size but not the explosiveness. Don't think she will get it either, she's not really a fast-twitch athlete. She struggles getting off the net and making an good approach when in transition.
Another possibility for the next quadrennial is Tara Cross-Battle (WHAT?! ARE YOU NUTS SOBB?). Hear me out. If she wants to continue to play or play/coach, the libero position is tailor-made for her. As someone alluded to earlier, Sykora is a great defensive libero, but a marginal serve-receive libero. TCB may be a notch below defensively, but way ahead on passing serve-receive. It could work.
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Post by MarsH on Aug 25, 2004 23:59:54 GMT -5
Okay, let's discuss who should go. Obviously Cross-Battle and Phipps. They're far past their prime. 'Nuff said. I think the US should also drop Ah Moh, Bown and Sykora. Those three have displayed some major shortcomings and are being outshined by their peers on the other side of the net. Ah Moh has some problems w/ accuracy to the outside, she's a blocking liability, and she's not very deceptive (partially Team USA's system's fault). Bown really struggles to terminate and seems to always miss her serve in crunch time. Sykora is best at digging, but what the team really needed was a pinpoint passer and she's not that. All three of them seemed to have gone down a level from 2000. Who is to say that they won't get even worse by 2008. I think the US should gradually phase out Danielle Scott. Older players tend to be very streaky and have days where they just aren't fired up. I would like to see Scott around for the next Olympics in the way that Mireya Luis was around for Cuba in 2000. Not starting, just occassionally subbing in. I'd like to see some young talent take over her spot. But don't get me wrong, she was one our strengths this Olympics. I think the US should try to keep Logan Tom, Nnamani, Haneef, and Berg. Even though Tom and Haneef struggled, these two are generally our top scorers and they're very strong athletes. Tom is needed for her ball control, digging and blocking. Her hitting has never been top notch, and I doubt she'll ever become as powerful as a Russian or a Cuban in her spiking, but she's pretty darn potent. Haneef is still improving. She seems like she's very committed and has a great attitude. I think she could be big for 2008. Nnamani could potentially be the one to build the team around. If her hitting continues to improve, she could be All World. Screw her passing skills, let everyone else pass. Build around her. Berg I simply like as a solid back up setter as the US invests in a young new setter. On the bubble, I say Metcalf. She was solid in this Olympics but does she bring enough positives to warrant keeping her around? She's not a great blocker, passer, or digger. Her hitting is pretty good but nothing to drool over. Personally, I would rather insert an OPP that can put up a strong block, pass nails, and get a couple kills here or there. Ah Mow-Santos, Bown and Sykora -- i don't think their games went down from 2000. I agree that her defense stands out more than her passing but i don't think sykora should be dropped. for her to improve, i think it would be good if USA can have someone pushing Stacy for that libero position. right now, who are the candidates? [SOBB, i respectfully disagree about TCB for libero. she has said that it's gotten harder and harder over the years to continue to train and practice everyday. the only role i can see her continuing on the national team is as a coach. the guidance she provided tom then, and nnamani and barboza this year, is still big.] iIf Robyn didn't have to leave the team for 2 years, i think she would be a better setter right now. after taking leave and having a child, last thing to come back to robyn was her accuracy and consistency in setting to the outside. Bown hasn't improved as much as we had hoped from 2000. She goes back from one style of serve to another for some reason. Is brilliant at times and missing at others. for what it's worth: i think Toshi will stay on as head coach. The team's run in these olympics doesn't do justice to how great a coach he is. i see Danielle Scott staying on the team. If not until 2008, atleast for a couple more years. the search for a second outside hitter continues. one who has all the skills (or can develop them) and is willing to kill herself training as much as the current players now do in Colorado Springs. as for the team's current outside hitter in Tom, since joining the team, she has shown flashes of her ability to lead the team in some matches. in this year's grand prix, it was there with regularity. in a struggling USA team in the olympics, for a couple of matches. considering the retirement of the veterans, even more responsibility falls on her shoulders. they need her to improve. her hitting in the grand prix was the best i've seen from her. it seems she doesn't do well without support from the other OH position. if USA finds 'that other OH', maybe that will be key. she needs to stay healthy. Haneef, when she finds her consistency, will be an asset to the team. Metcalf needs to believe she can take that starting position over tayyiba. Berg is still young, and should get better with more experience. I think i read somewhere that she doesn't connect well with the outside. i don't think this is necessarily true. if she improves her toss of the ball, she would be a better server too. |
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Post by sonofbarcelonabob on Aug 26, 2004 0:48:42 GMT -5
[SOBB, i respectfully disagree about TCB for libero. she has said that it's gotten harder and harder over the years to continue to train and practice everyday. the only role i can see her continuing on the national team is as a coach. the guidance she provided tom then, and nnamani and barboza this year, is still big.] Yup, that is more true than my postulation. But the glaring weakness here is that in this country, the way we train passing does not produce any great passers. We are too focused on the flashier aspects of the game (hitting/blocking/jumpserving) yet we don't even do those things as well as the top teams. One of the prevailing attitudes on this board is that Player X is better than Player Y (subject to some biasing based on where Player X or Player Y is from and which college they played for), and that will always be true. However, nothing is written in stone and it is entirely possible that Player Y will outwork Player X and change the equation, or that Player Z which everyone has discounted will come outa nowhere and beat out both Player X and Player Y. Alot of people (particularly coaches) use the term "Upside" as in "Player X has a tremendous upside". The reason I don't believe players like Willoughby, Porter, or Weaver will impact Team USA in the next quadrennial is that even if these players have a desire to play for Team USA (which right now is unknown), in my opinion these players do not have much "upside" to them. We've seen what they can do, and while it may sometimes be very spectacular, I don't see them improving much more over their current level. I don't believe Weaver will become an international caliber blocker, ever. So despite her tremendous offensive abilities, she cannot fulfill the needs of Team USA. Same with Willoughby and Porter, they are spectacular at certain phases of the game, but weaknesses in other parts of the game do not lead me to believe they will get that much better to be impact players for 2008. |
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Post by beachman on Aug 26, 2004 1:19:16 GMT -5
Logan Tom and Kerri Walsh playing beach volleyball in Beijing! You heard it first here! You gotta be dreamin!!!!!!!! Ain't no way pal, no way at all! |
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Post by brybry on Aug 26, 2004 2:56:17 GMT -5
Yup, that is more true than my postulation. But the glaring weakness here is that in this country, the way we train passing does not produce any great passers. We are too focused on the flashier aspects of the game (hitting/blocking/jumpserving) yet we don't even do those things as well as the top teams. One of the prevailing attitudes on this board is that Player X is better than Player Y (subject to some biasing based on where Player X or Player Y is from and which college they played for), and that will always be true. However, nothing is written in stone and it is entirely possible that Player Y will outwork Player X and change the equation, or that Player Z which everyone has discounted will come outa nowhere and beat out both Player X and Player Y. Alot of people (particularly coaches) use the term "Upside" as in "Player X has a tremendous upside". The reason I don't believe players like Willoughby, Porter, or Weaver will impact Team USA in the next quadrennial is that even if these players have a desire to play for Team USA (which right now is unknown), in my opinion these players do not have much "upside" to them. We've seen what they can do, and while it may sometimes be very spectacular, I don't see them improving much more over their current level. I don't believe Weaver will become an international caliber blocker, ever. So despite her tremendous offensive abilities, she cannot fulfill the needs of Team USA. Same with Willoughby and Porter, they are spectacular at certain phases of the game, but weaknesses in other parts of the game do not lead me to believe they will get that much better to be impact players for 2008. I would like to see TCB train at libero, but I don't see her making the move. Her passing was pretty poor during these Olympic games. Maybe Team USA can persuade Zartman to come indoors. I just don't see Metcalf improving much more. Yes, she's a better all-around player than Haneef but she's not going to be a points leader against strong teams. If she were getting set as much as Haneef (particularly in desperation situations), she would probably get eaten alive. I think Willoughby needs to be lured to team to at least see what she can do. She at least has the potential to be really good. Don't know if she'll ever live up to it though. |
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Post by sIsam on Aug 26, 2004 3:05:09 GMT -5
I just don't see Metcalf improving much more. Yes, she's a better all-around player than Haneef but she's not going to be a points leader against strong teams. If she were getting set as much as Haneef (particularly in desperation situations), she would probably get eaten alive. Not so sure about that... I don't think you give Metcalf enough credit. I have not see her in NT situations but she did a good job with her team in Italy this past season, both in the league and at IECL. In a few of their matches (a couple vs Novara in Italy) she played opp (instead of OH which was her usualy position there) since Aguero was setting and in Aguero's absence as hitter she got many of the bad sets/ random balls. She may get dug but she does not make many mistakes. She can also hit repeatedly without errors. |
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Post by USAFAN on Aug 26, 2004 3:23:12 GMT -5
Yup, that is more true than my postulation. But the glaring weakness here is that in this country, the way we train passing does not produce any great passers. We are too focused on the flashier aspects of the game (hitting/blocking/jumpserving) yet we don't even do those things as well as the top teams. One of the prevailing attitudes on this board is that Player X is better than Player Y (subject to some biasing based on where Player X or Player Y is from and which college they played for), and that will always be true. However, nothing is written in stone and it is entirely possible that Player Y will outwork Player X and change the equation, or that Player Z which everyone has discounted will come outa nowhere and beat out both Player X and Player Y. Alot of people (particularly coaches) use the term "Upside" as in "Player X has a tremendous upside". The reason I don't believe players like Willoughby, Porter, or Weaver will impact Team USA in the next quadrennial is that even if these players have a desire to play for Team USA (which right now is unknown), in my opinion these players do not have much "upside" to them. We've seen what they can do, and while it may sometimes be very spectacular, I don't see them improving much more over their current level. I don't believe Weaver will become an international caliber blocker, ever. So despite her tremendous offensive abilities, she cannot fulfill the needs of Team USA. Same with Willoughby and Porter, they are spectacular at certain phases of the game, but weaknesses in other parts of the game do not lead me to believe they will get that much better to be impact players for 2008. I really enjoy your insight and I don't mean to disagree with you on every post, but I am curious to understand your logic. We'll start with Weaver. First off she brings a much better offensive game than Bown brings, and at this point I would say offensive production is more important. The offensive load that the Cubans Barros and Carillo have is pretty extensive, as well as the middle hitting of China and Brazil. Weaver has tremendous lateral speed and I think that she could become a great blocker. I also don't see how you can say that they don't have an upside. She is in better shape than I have ever seen with a USA volleyball athlete and has the physical ability that can't be taught. With Willoughby, I am almost on the verge of being astounded. Kim Willoughby has progressed tremendously every year that she was at UH, I think more noticeably than Ogonna Nnamani's change from year to year. Kim Willoughby, with a touch of 10'6'', has the physical hitting capability of Cubans. Besides that she has an international caliber jump serve and plays pretty good defense and passing. I once again don't understand how you can say she doesn't have much of an upside when she hasn't even stepped foot into Toshi's world of training. Kristee Porter is almost a mirror image of Willoughby in my mind. Has all the physical skills and a better all around game than Ogonna has at this point. I am curious to think why you feel they have no upside. I think the USA needs to get the athletes that have the physical capability of being dominating. Logan Tom, while a great thinker and shot maker, isn't dominating physically. The only player whom the USA had who can be classified as physically dominating was Danielle Scott. |
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Post by Gorf on Aug 26, 2004 8:33:26 GMT -5
Well before the 2008 Olympic games Chrissie Zartman will have graduated from UCLA. She's shown repeatedly that she is excellent at both defense and serve receive. At least at the collegiate level, she'd have to prove herself at the international level, however, I think she'd give Stacy a lot of competition for the starting libero spot for 2008.
I'd like to see Cassie Busse try out for the national team for 2008. I don't know if she could overtake Tayyiba and Nancy at opposite since she doesn't have the international experience at this point. I think she would provide more consistancy on offence, a solid block, better defense than either Tayiiba or Nancy, and a very good serve. I haven't heard whether she's interested.
Ogonna has proven that she's capable of playing at the international level at least in terms of her offense and blocking. Defensively she'd have to improve in order to not again be a backup on the team. If she does earn a starting spot though, I think she could be much more of a vocal leader on the team than anyone showed during the 2004 Olympics.
As SoBB mentioned Logan is at this point the Karch Kiraly of the team. Kiraly, however, was one of the best players in the world on serve receive. Logan would have to improve that aspect of her game significantly in order to live up to such a comparison though. She's still the best all around player on the team.
Good arguments have been made for Kim Willoughby, Cheryl Weaver, Kristee Porter, and Brit Hochever.
I'm not sure that Kristee really brings more to the team than Ogonna, however, I doubt the competition for the OH positions wouldn't hurt either - and frankly it wouldn't hurt Logan either.
I'd like to see Lindsey stay with the team to fight to the starting setter position with Brit (and whomever else), though if defense and serve receive doesn't improve dramatically it may not matter too much which setter is selected.
There would need to be more middles fighting for the starting positions. I don't see any of the ones from the 2004 team as anything other than backups for 2008, but who knows for sure.
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