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Post by spikeandserve on Jun 6, 2017 2:58:06 GMT -5
If we are looking at the 2000's, is there truly any legitimate doubt? Phil pre-Todd (3 years) - 1 win. Phil with Todd (6 years) - 68 wins. Phil post-Todd (4.5 years) - 18 wins. Todd - 80 total wins - 7th all-time. Obviously, he started with a green, non-winning Phil and took him to the very top, and still had 12 wins with other partners. Anyone who thinks that Todd is not either the best or 2nd best player of the 2000's is just being silly. Completely agree. Todd has 47 more tournament victories and one more gold medal than the next Non- Phil American in that time span. Not even close. |
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Post by beavis on Jun 7, 2017 12:41:57 GMT -5
Thanks, Spikeandserve! Finally, someone who agrees with me - HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by JB Southpaw on Jun 7, 2017 13:15:33 GMT -5
Thanks, Spikeandserve! Finally, someone who agrees with me - HA!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh, I'm big time in the Todd camp. To me, 17 years is too long of a time frame. |
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Post by Semp12 on Jun 12, 2017 9:35:20 GMT -5
If we are looking at the 2000's, is there truly any legitimate doubt? Phil pre-Todd (3 years) - 1 win. Phil with Todd (6 years) - 68 wins. Phil post-Todd (4.5 years) - 18 wins. Todd - 80 total wins - 7th all-time. Obviously, he started with a green, non-winning Phil and took him to the very top, and still had 12 wins with other partners. Anyone who thinks that Todd is not either the best or 2nd best player of the 2000's is just being silly. While this is true from a results standpoint, everyone knew Phil was already a stud and potentially could have had those results with a few other defenders as well. Nick was definitely not the top level player during his first Phil run. |
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Post by beavis on Jun 13, 2017 1:43:06 GMT -5
So during the 2000's, who has been was better, over the 17 year period, than Todd? I love Johnny Hyden and some of the other players whom others have mentioned throughout this thread, but who has actually been a better player (i.e., had better results), that Todd? And do you really think that Phil would have had better results with any other 2000's player?
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Post by guest2 on Jun 13, 2017 7:02:04 GMT -5
So during the 2000's, who has been was better, over the 17 year period, than Todd? I love Johnny Hyden and some of the other players whom others have mentioned throughout this thread, but who has actually been a better player (i.e., had better results), that Todd? And do you really think that Phil would have had better results with any other 2000's player? I do think that. You underestimate the degree to which Phil distorts his partner's results. When the thread started I was unsure but now I am pretty convinced that Todd was a very good player who hit the lottery with Phil and that Jake Gibb has been the second best US player this century. Todd didn't hook up with Phil until he was 33, which means there is plenty of evidence to show just how good Todd was without Phil. Todd played a ton of events without Phil and there is simply no evidence to support the proposition that he was a great player w/out Phil or that he was the best US player without Phil There are basically two arenas: Domestic and FIVB Domestic John Hyden has had a better career than non-Phil Todd, as I mentioned they both played with Sean Scott and Hyden's results were better than Todd's. If we also look at Todd's best pre-Phil years, it shows the same thing. In 2000, Todd won 3 US events and an FIVB. In 2005, Todd won 3 US events. When Hyden was at his best, roughly 2009-2012, he had several years there where he won more than Todd ever did. In 2012 for example, Hyden won everything domestically, Hyden's 2012 was close to as good as Todd's best domestic season with Phil. Jake Gibb has had five seasons where he duplicate or exceeded Todd's best, often in half the events. Stein Metzger had three seasons better than anything Todd did. FIVB Gibb - 114 tournaments/6 wins and World Championship Sean without Phil - 80/4 and a World Championship Stein - 67/2 Todd without Phil - 66/1 Casey - 56/2 Hyden - 54/1 Win On the FIVB, Todd had zero success without Phil, but Rosie was part of the no. 1 or 2 team with Jake Gibb in an Olympic year. He won four times as many events as Todd did. Every player on the above list did as well or better than non-Phil Todd. Todd's non-Phil FIVB career is exactly the same as Casey's. Not Casey Patterson, who has outperformed Todd despite his advancing years, Casey Jennings Finally if there is any doubt that Phil is the real reason Todd has more than 25 wins, take a look at Nick. Without Phil - 174 tournaments/2 AVP wins With very young and very old Phil - 61/14 (and 6 FIVBs) I think the best historical comparisons for Todd are not players like Kent Steffes and Sinjin, but players like Frohoff and Ak, maybe AJ. Very good players who won a lot when they got to play with Karch or Loiola, but who were just contenders without a best in the world type partner. (Whereas true greats like Phil, Rego, Karch, Sinjin, Steffes, Loiola, etc. were dominant with multiple players) |
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Post by JB Southpaw on Jun 13, 2017 10:31:17 GMT -5
guest2Thing is, neither of those 2 players (Hyden, Todd) were never the 2nd best player, they are just the 2 that have lasted this long. 2000-2010 Lambo was the best overall player or 2nd best 2011-present it is Gibb. Gibbs 2005-2010 wasn't bad either. Gibb also has 31 2nd place finishes, since 2005 (Era of Phil), 3 Olympics with 2 different partners. Was part of the best FIVB for a year. Gibb has my vote.
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Post by guest2 on Jun 13, 2017 11:43:13 GMT -5
guest2Thing is, neither of those 2 players (Hyden, Todd) were never the 2nd best player, they are just the 2 that have lasted this long. 2000-2010 Lambo was the best overall player or 2nd best 2011-present it is Gibb. Gibbs 2005-2010 wasn't bad either. Gibb also has 31 2nd place finishes, since 2005 (Era of Phil), 3 Olympics with 2 different partners. Was part of the best FIVB for a year. Gibb has my vote. I think you are exactly right, although Todd may have been second best that one year with Scott, but it was probably still Lambo. |
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Post by gr8ful on Jun 26, 2017 3:45:14 GMT -5
We were talking about how good Rosie is now in another thread and I realized he had been playing full time more or less for 18 years. He won on both sides and with different guys, and for most of his career he was competing against Phil every event. He was part of arguably the top team in the world with two different partners. I started thinking about who has been the best non-Phil US player this century. Todd is the obvious choice here because he has 80 wins, but I have started to rethink my opinion on Todd. So much of Todd's success was because he was the guy playing with Phil. His non-Phil resume looks very similar to other top US defenders of his generation. For example Todd and Dax started out together and prior to Phil, Dax had a better post-Todd career than vice versa. In the 2000s, Metzger's record was comparable prior to Todd getting Phil. Also Hyden and Todd both played with Sean Scott and Hyden won more events in fewer tournaments against a massively tougher field than Rogers/Scott and during Phil's run with Sean he won at a slightly lower rate than with Todd (39% to 31%) despite being hobbled by injuries and being older and less effective himself. Jake Gibb also has to be a contender. He was part of three top teams. Also Lambert/Metzger were both excellent players. Anyway interested to hear what other people think. My top 5 since 2000, not counting Phil: 1. Gibb 2. Todd 3. Rosie 4. Lambert 5. Hyden/Metzger I think Lambert was the best but didn't have the longetivity all the rest had, so I deducted for that. I still regret never getting to see Lambert play behind Phil's block Even with the injury shortened career I would put Lambo at 2. |
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