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Post by flyerfan on Oct 3, 2017 10:25:02 GMT -5
NCAA definition is: A kill (K) is awarded to a player any time an attack is unreturnable by the opposition and is a direct cause of the opponent not returning the ball...
And you said "the setter should have gotten the ball...". If the setter should have gotten the ball (which seems to be the case we are discussing), then the attack was "returnable" (even though it was not returned), and the attack was NOT "a direct cause of the opponent not returning the ball". It was at best an INDIRECT cause.
So if we go by the guidelines, it doesn't look like a kill to me.
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Post by joetrinsey on Oct 3, 2017 11:02:23 GMT -5
Does joetrinsey have any input on how to score these? If the ball was never controlled (like it sounds like in the first example), I'll score it a kill. Another example would be the ball dug into the stands/bench and a player dives into it to get a second touch and a third person gets a touch on it, but there was never any real chance of the ball being brought back, I will score a kill. The point of statistics is to most accurately capture what happened in the play. A point must always end with a point or error credited to a player. So you're either assigning a setting or attacking error to the defending side (who never controlled the first touch) or a kill to the attacking side. I feel like the kill best describes the situation as I read it from the OP. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2017 11:25:30 GMT -5
Ah, but sometimes it ends with a point credited to a player AND an error credited to another player, correct? At least it does in the NCAA. (Kill/blocking error and service ace/reception error being the two that spring to mind.)
And I agree about the point of statistics, that's why the free ball that falls for a kill is so unsatisfying. Seems like a team defensive error stat would be better.
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Post by cardinalvolleyball on Oct 3, 2017 12:50:53 GMT -5
No. The ball has to be kept in play for it to be a dig. Even in that scenario when it is not the fault of the digger, it's not kept in play, so it's not a dig. Her action (the dig) did keep it in play. It's not her fault her teammates failed to go for it. So would you award a kill to the attacker? that is how its awarded. All the plays we are discussing, if ruled differently would then be judgement calls. "Well how close is she?" "Should she have gotten that ball?" The way they are credited right now takes all the judgment out. That's how you get liberoes getting kills from overpass BKs |
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Post by Sorry Ass Sal on Oct 3, 2017 21:10:49 GMT -5
Her action (the dig) did keep it in play. It's not her fault her teammates failed to go for it. So would you award a kill to the attacker? that is how its awarded. All the plays we are discussing, if ruled differently would then be judgement calls. "Well how close is she?" "Should she have gotten that ball?" The way they are credited right now takes all the judgment out. That's how you get liberoes getting kills from overpass BKs So you're saying if a hitter cranks one down the line and the defender makes a perfect dig, yet for some reason there is no second touch, that is a kill? In my opinion that rewards a hitter who didn't put it away and punishes a defender who made a great play. |
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Post by c4ndlelight on Oct 3, 2017 23:27:28 GMT -5
that is how its awarded. All the plays we are discussing, if ruled differently would then be judgement calls. "Well how close is she?" "Should she have gotten that ball?" The way they are credited right now takes all the judgment out. That's how you get liberoes getting kills from overpass BKs So you're saying if a hitter cranks one down the line and the defender makes a perfect dig, yet for some reason there is no second touch, that is a kill? In my opinion that rewards a hitter who didn't put it away and punishes a defender who made a great play. If the defender made a great play, someone would have controlled the second contact. |
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Post by BuckysHeat on Oct 4, 2017 7:55:13 GMT -5
My favorite is when a team has more digs than the other team has attack attempts... Oddly enough I watched this happen last night. A friend of ours was a few digs away from a milestone so I was counting her digs as the game went along. She reached her milestone and I still had her 4 digs short, seems they were counting freeball passes as digs as well. Made me wonder how many short of the milestone she actually is as I am sure the same definition of a dig has been used the entire time. In fact, looking through maxpreps at a few randomly selected games, here is the comparison between her team's digging (team A) and their opponent's (Team B) hitting | Team A digs | Team B attacks | Team B Kills | Team B errors | | 93 | 95 | 16 | 13 | | 77 | 77 | 15 | 13 | | 98 | 77 | 20 | 20 | | 90 | 62 | 12 | 13 | | 40 | 59 | 28 | 6 |
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Post by flyerfan on Oct 4, 2017 8:15:12 GMT -5
So you're saying if a hitter cranks one down the line and the defender makes a perfect dig, yet for some reason there is no second touch, that is a kill? In my opinion that rewards a hitter who didn't put it away and punishes a defender who made a great play. If the defender made a great play, someone would have controlled the second contact. That statement defies logic. It happens all the time. I'll give you a few possible explanations: 1) the coach has been screaming at everyone and everyone is gunshy 2) the ball was dug between two players and they both went for it, then stopped when they saw the other 3) the middle served so there was no libero on the court, and the middle couldn't or didn't realize she was supposed to get the 2nd contact after the setter dug 4) the setter tripped over the middle 5) the setter twisted an ankle blocking and couldn't get to the ball |
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Post by cardinalvolleyball on Oct 4, 2017 10:37:19 GMT -5
that is how its awarded. All the plays we are discussing, if ruled differently would then be judgement calls. "Well how close is she?" "Should she have gotten that ball?" The way they are credited right now takes all the judgment out. That's how you get liberoes getting kills from overpass BKs So you're saying if a hitter cranks one down the line and the defender makes a perfect dig, yet for some reason there is no second touch, that is a kill? In my opinion that rewards a hitter who didn't put it away and punishes a defender who made a great play. I completely agree and when we rate our passers touches we rate it off the touch not the outcome, but that is for the stats we keep in house. However, official scoring will count that as a kill. |
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Post by c4ndlelight on Oct 4, 2017 11:11:19 GMT -5
If the defender made a great play, someone would have controlled the second contact. That statement defies logic. It happens all the time. I'll give you a few possible explanations: 1) the coach has been screaming at everyone and everyone is gunshy 2) the ball was dug between two players and they both went for it, then stopped when they saw the other 3) the middle served so there was no libero on the court, and the middle couldn't or didn't realize she was supposed to get the 2nd contact after the setter dug 4) the setter tripped over the middle 5) the setter twisted an ankle blocking and couldn't get to the ball These are pretty rare occurrences. My comment was too broad, but I find it much more common for someone to get praise for making a "great defensive play" when they sent a line drive pass to Zone 4 that the setter had no chance of playing, or the setter popped it up too far away from designated secondary setter and then didn't communicate at all. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2017 11:51:41 GMT -5
It works the other way too, for better of worse. A great setter will create "digs" from really iffy 1st contacts.*
There's a reason why "statistics lie" is said all the time. It's the same thing with baseball. A great defense makes a pitcher's stats look much better than the quality of the actual pitching.
Good news? This is also what's great about volleyball. It really is a team sport.
*And a great hitter can inflate a so-so setter's assist stats.
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Post by Sorry Ass Sal on Oct 4, 2017 20:38:25 GMT -5
So you're saying if a hitter cranks one down the line and the defender makes a perfect dig, yet for some reason there is no second touch, that is a kill? In my opinion that rewards a hitter who didn't put it away and punishes a defender who made a great play. If the defender made a great play, someone would have controlled the second contact. Typically yes. I've seen it not happen. |
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