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Post by Wolfgang on Apr 16, 2019 19:15:25 GMT -5
Another layer of difficulty with Mandarin Chinese. Here's a word pronounced BÙ. It's the 4th tone so it goes from high-to-low pitch.  You use this character to negate other words, like "no can" or "can't." Here's "can't" or "not capable":  Here, the "bu" portion, which is pronounced BÚ and has the same "no" meaning, uses the 2nd tone, which goes from low-to-high. So, in some contexts, the "bu" uses one tone, while in other contexts, the "bu" uses a different tone. And if you use the wrong tone, the meaning changes. This type of stuff happens constantly, which makes learning a challenge. |
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Post by Phaedrus on Apr 16, 2019 19:18:05 GMT -5
One aspect of Mandarin Chinese that I find interesting is that it uses radicals and basic root characters to build other more elaborate and complex characters. For example, the radical for "tree" is:  With this radical, you can create other words like table, chair, forest, and root, all of which are more complex-looking characters but still contain the basic "tree" radical because, as you can guess, they're all made of wood (long time ago, that is). For "forest," you would simply have two "tree" radicals side by side:  So, I like this intuitiveness. This aspect of Mandarin Chinese is not unique among languages, of course, Other languages use basic root characters or words to build other related characters and words, like "bicycle" in English which uses the combination of "bi" (two) and "cycle." Sometimes, it gets strange though. If you combine the character for "big" with the character for "be able," you generate a character meaning "weird." It's not clear why but I'm sure some Chinese linguist can enlighten how that happened. Similarly, if you combine the character "west" with the character "woman," you generate a character meaning "to want" or "important, essential." Truly baffling. This is my problem with the simplified characters, they completely distilled the etymology of the characters out by making the characters easier to write. Mao believed that the written language was what was keeping China from being great. When I learned to pronounce the characters we took a lot of time with the Taiwanese Phonetic symbols, it was worth it, I was able to speak pure Mandarin because I was able to read and hear the differences between the first and fourth accent. |
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Post by Wolfgang on Apr 16, 2019 19:28:44 GMT -5
I'm learning Traditional Chinese and bypassing Simplified Chinese altogether. I'm also proficient with BoPoMoFo now. The reason is that I find myself more likely to visit Taiwan (vs. Mainland China) and also possibly reading Chinese literature -- all of which uses traditional characters. The simplified characters really take the beauty out of the language, imho. But hey, I'm no Chinese language expert.
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Post by XAsstCoach on Apr 16, 2019 20:12:11 GMT -5
Which is why in China many drivers slow down on the highway so they can read the road signs. Some even come to a complete stop and WHAM! traffic accident. Are you talking about Western drivers in China, surely not the Chinese drivers in China? Chinese drivers. I honestly do not know what goes on in their minds that they would risk themselves and other drivers by slowing down or coming to a complete stop in the middle of the highway just to read the road signs. Something is not processing fast enough for these drivers (not all, but many). I read the English portion and determine if thats the way to go. If I miss it, then I go to the next exit and turnaround. For some reason Chinese drivers do not like to do the drive around. If they missed the exit, they would prefer to backup on the highway to the exit they had just missed. Fewer instances now because you are automatically deducted 12 points (you only get 12 pts per year) if caught backing up on the highway, but it still happens. If they are at the exit but stuck in the left lane, they will pull the 3 lanes crossover to the exit...and they don't do it smoothly either. |
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Post by Wolfgang on Apr 16, 2019 20:14:49 GMT -5
Are you talking about Western drivers in China, surely not the Chinese drivers in China? Chinese drivers. I honestly do not know what goes on in their minds that they would risk themselves and other drivers by slowing down or coming to a complete stop in the middle of the highway just to read the road signs. Something is not processing fast enough for these drivers (not all, but many). I read the English portion and determine if thats the way to go. If I miss it, then I go to the next exit and turnaround. For some reason Chinese drivers do not like to do the drive around. If they missed the exit, they would prefer to backup on the highway to the exit they had just missed. Fewer instances now because you are automatically deducted 12 points (you only get 12 pts per year) if caught backing up on the highway, but it still happens. If they are at the exit but stuck in the left lane, they will pull the 3 lanes crossover to the exit...and they don't do it smoothly either. I don't get it. How are Chinese drivers so slow in reading Chinese? |
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Post by XAsstCoach on Apr 16, 2019 20:18:18 GMT -5
I'm learning Traditional Chinese and bypassing Simplified Chinese altogether. I'm also proficient with BoPoMoFo now. The reason is that I find myself more likely to visit Taiwan (vs. Mainland China) and also possibly reading Chinese literature -- all of which uses traditional characters. The simplified characters really take the beauty out of the language, imho. But hey, I'm no Chinese language expert. Hence the argument of why traditional Chinese is the true way of writing. I think literacy was falling on the mainland so the gov't started using the simplified Chinese to help the population. Still, some places like Guangzhou you will probably still see traditional Chinese written on store signs. Its kind of funny, because when I watch Chinese movies depicting the old days...like Three Kingdom...I try to see if they're using traditional or simplified Chinese on the banners, store signs, etc. |
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Post by XAsstCoach on Apr 16, 2019 20:20:06 GMT -5
I don't get it. How are Chinese drivers so slow in reading Chinese? Been beating myself over the head thinking about this for the most part of 10 years before I conceded that TIC (This Is China). |
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Post by Wolfgang on Apr 17, 2019 12:53:38 GMT -5
Well, I discovered something about myself. My biggest problem in learning Chinese is memorizing the right tones. There are four tones (actually five or six, but that's not important right now). I've been writing and "seeing" the tones by using punctuation marks above the corresponding vowels, in this example, the letter "A":  For some reason, my brain can't remember these tone-indicator marks. However, I do a better job of memorizing alphanumeric symbols. For example, the word for "horse" is MĂI can't seem to remember this with the little tone-indicator punctuation mark above the letter "A," and thus, I don't pronounce it correctly. However, this tone is #3, so if I try to memorize it as MA3I discovered that I can remember this better. |
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Post by Wolfgang on Apr 19, 2019 1:35:21 GMT -5
The measure words (e.g., gè, zhī, jiān, zhāng) are driving me crazy. There are so many! But I suppose there are a lot in English, so fair's fair.
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Post by Wolfgang on Apr 19, 2019 10:49:22 GMT -5
I'm just going to use a different colored set of index cards for all the measure words and memorize the hell out of them.
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Post by Wolfgang on Apr 20, 2019 14:41:34 GMT -5
In Chinese, you can't simply combine words together to make a phrase thinking that'll work. For example, I tried to come up with the phrase "Late afternoon" so I combined the word for "late" and another word for "afternoon" and put them together. My Chinese ex-coworker told me that's wrong. You can say "afternoon" or "before evening" or simply give the time of day, but there's really no phrase for "late afternoon." Yes, you can make up your own phrase and say "late afternoon" but Chinese people will look at you funny and call the cops.
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Post by Steve vb on Apr 22, 2019 22:30:41 GMT -5
The measure words (e.g., gè, zhī, jiān, zhāng) are driving me crazy. There are so many! But I suppose there are a lot in English, so fair's fair. Two options: 1. When you learn a new noun, remember the measure word at the same time. Imagine that the two are actually one word. 2. If you use "gè" before every noun, people will understand you. If your goal is simply to be understood, this is not a bad option. |
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Post by ironhammer on Apr 22, 2019 22:53:14 GMT -5
In Chinese, you can't simply combine words together to make a phrase thinking that'll work. For example, I tried to come up with the phrase "Late afternoon" so I combined the word for "late" and another word for "afternoon" and put them together. My Chinese ex-coworker told me that's wrong. You can say "afternoon" or "before evening" or simply give the time of day, but there's really no phrase for "late afternoon." Yes, you can make up your own phrase and say "late afternoon" but Chinese people will look at you funny and call the cops. The issue is that you are using the meaning of English word combination. Other languages may not necessarily have that combinations. You are thinking English expressions not Chinese expressions, that's the problem. |
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Post by mikegarrison on Apr 23, 2019 1:27:03 GMT -5
In Chinese, you can't simply combine words together to make a phrase thinking that'll work. For example, I tried to come up with the phrase "Late afternoon" so I combined the word for "late" and another word for "afternoon" and put them together. My Chinese ex-coworker told me that's wrong. You can say "afternoon" or "before evening" or simply give the time of day, but there's really no phrase for "late afternoon." Yes, you can make up your own phrase and say "late afternoon" but Chinese people will look at you funny and call the cops. Here in Seattle, what are called cha siu bao in most places in the world are called hum bao. One time I was in Amsterdam and I tried to order a hum bao from a bakery, and they looked at me like I was insane. Chinese people have told me that hum bao literally means "salt bag". Filled Chinese pastries are called bao or baozi, but hum means "salty". However, when it's opposed with sweet, it has more of the connotation of "savory". So I guess some Chinese people in Seattle must have started selling sweet and savory bakery items, but this was misunderstood. Instead of realizing that cha siu bao (a sort of bbq pork roll) was in the category of savory rolls (hum bao), they thought it was actually specifically called "hum bao". And now in Seattle if you order a hum bao, you get a cha siu bao. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cha_siu_bao |
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Post by c4ndlelight on Apr 23, 2019 10:25:58 GMT -5
In Chinese, you can't simply combine words together to make a phrase thinking that'll work. For example, I tried to come up with the phrase "Late afternoon" so I combined the word for "late" and another word for "afternoon" and put them together. My Chinese ex-coworker told me that's wrong. You can say "afternoon" or "before evening" or simply give the time of day, but there's really no phrase for "late afternoon." Yes, you can make up your own phrase and say "late afternoon" but Chinese people will look at you funny and call the cops. Here in Seattle, what are called cha siu bao in most places in the world are called hum bao. One time I was in Amsterdam and I tried to order a hum bao from a bakery, and they looked at me like I was insane. Chinese people have told me that hum bao literally means "salt bag". Filled Chinese pastries are called bao or baozi, but hum means "salty". However, when it's opposed with sweet, it has more of the connotation of "savory". So I guess some Chinese people in Seattle must have started selling sweet and savory bakery items, but this was misunderstood. Instead of realizing that cha siu bao (a sort of bbq pork roll) was in the category of savory rolls (hum bao), they thought it was actually specifically called "hum bao". And now in Seattle if you order a hum bao, you get a cha siu bao. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cha_siu_baoThis applies to Portland too, actually. A very painful misunderstanding because Hun Bao are DELICIOUS. |
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