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Post by HuskerPower1 on May 4, 2019 0:21:06 GMT -5
Wow, this is a great thread - NOT!!!!!!
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Post by ineedajob on May 4, 2019 3:35:11 GMT -5
Wow, this is a great thread - NOT!!!!!! I disagree. I think this is an important discussion to have, especially these days.
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Post by stevehorn on May 4, 2019 8:01:39 GMT -5
I am somehow not making this clear, when it should be painfully obvious. The potential pool of coaches for a sport comes almost exclusively from the pool of high-level highly trained former players. There is then some percentage from that pool that has the desire and is encouraged to coach. The pool for women's basketball, men's basketball and women's volleyball are all quite large, so you would expect them to generate a large number of coaches to fill their needs. The pool for men's volleyball is very small (1/10th) so you would expect it to generate a much smaller number of coaches to fill it's need. If it generated more than it's need, the numbers are so small they should not negatively impact the women's game. How is it, then, that male coaches have so completely overwhelmed female coaches in volleyball, to the point that not a single female coach has won a championship? I could not disagree with you more, in that it is absolutely the sports job (through the USAV, NCAA, etc) to promote the sport and to encourage it's top athletes to coach and lead the next generation. When the top athletes are not encouraged to stay in the sport and assume positions of leadership, then something is truly and horribly gone off the rails. The women's game is now, and always has been, an auxiliary to the men's game, even though it should have 10 times the influence by virtue of numbers. This is a very clear sign of a fundamental problem. Ok I see your point about the pool of people men v women. Perhaps that discrepancy goes back to not wanting that kind of lifestyle while having children and raising them, where as men traditionally are more likely to go all in. Those roles have changed a lot more in the past 30 years, of course. That seems a weak point when you see much higher levels of women coaches in the other women's college sports such as basketball, as well as other time consuming positions throughout society.
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Post by utoolity on May 4, 2019 8:14:36 GMT -5
Ok I see your point about the pool of people men v women. Perhaps that discrepancy goes back to not wanting that kind of lifestyle while having children and raising them, where as men traditionally are more likely to go all in. Those roles have changed a lot more in the past 30 years, of course. That seems a weak point when you see much higher levels of women coaches in the other women's college sports such as basketball, as well as other time consuming positions throughout society.
How many paid assistants exist in women’s basketball vs women’s volleyball? The answer is 5 to 2 I believe. Better work life balance exists in women’s hoops due to better funding due to getting the equivalencies from men’s basketball.
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Post by silversurfer on May 4, 2019 9:24:06 GMT -5
I saw that picture of all the guys and initially thought "Oh, this is a bad look." However, I still don't think this is as much a "volleyball" problem where ADs are only hiring men because they're sexist pigs as it is more a problem that there aren't enough premium coaching jobs in men's volleyball. Other societal problems also come into play, such as the stigma that (assuming a traditional marriage) men should be the primary earner in the household and the fact that (in the real world) men are paid more for doing the same jobs. For a married couple where the woman is a volleyball coach, it is likely that she doesn't make as much as her husband's "real job." It is also true that it wouldn't make sense for their family for her to pursue a more premium position if that means that he would have to find a new job elsewhere. If it is a married couple where the man is a volleyball coach, it is relatively more likely that his wife is underpaid in her "real job" and their salaries might be more comparable. Now, it would make sense for that male coach to try to find a more premium job. In traditionally married couples, it is more likely that a couple is willing to relocate for the husband's job than the wife's (I have no statistics for that, but I think it's true). This could prevent a married female coach from relocating to pursue a more premium position. Along with that, There are many reasons why coaching Women's volleyball is more appealing than coaching in Men's volleyball. There are far fewer men's jobs across the country. The majority of the men's jobs not paid as well as women's jobs. If I am married and my partner has a "real job" that pays more than mine, I am less likely to uproot my family for a job that does not pay as well as my partner's. A comparable job in women's volleyball pays more money, making it more likely that I could out-earn my partner, and more desirable for me to want to uproot my family. Additionally, even if I am unwilling to uproot my family for a coaching job, it is more likely that I live closer to an institution that has a women's volleyball program, making that job more desirable to me. Just a couple other factors that are being ignored in my opinion. There are so many places across the country where men play volleyball, but it isn't a "sanctioned" sport for whatever reason. Another thing to account for is the disparity in scholarship money and availability between men's and women's college volleyball. Playing volleyball is not a way for most boys to pay for college, but it is for girls. Yes, that can result in a girl player receiving better training throughout college, whereas it might result in a boy playing college club or even starting to coach and look at the game like a coach from the time they're 17/18 years old. I think your numbers are discounting the NCVF (college club volleyball). While there are also women's teams and players, the top men's players much more closely resemble their DI counterparts than do the top women's players. Ignoring the numbers for a moment, It is a strange and troubling assumption that because there aren't as many men's jobs, that it is perfectly reasonable for men to take all the best women's jobs, especially if they pay well. You said maybe it is harder for a woman to coach if she wants kids and a family. Muffett McGraw is married with a kid and Pat Summit was married with a kid. Kim Mulkey is married with 2 kids. You said you think there are more men playing on club teams than women, because fewer schools field men's teams. I agree with you. There are 10 times more college female players than male, but high school participation rates are about 7 to 1. You can shake all the trees you want and you aren't going to bring the ratio much lower than that, and you aren't getting it anywhere close to the ratio in basketball where there are slightly more boys than girls. I agree that ADs aren't being blindly sexist pigs. It's much more subtle than that. The ADs are obviously willing to hire female basketball coaches. It has been shown time and again in different industries that people are dramatically more likely to hire someone that looks like them if there is no conscious effort to prevent that from happening (race and gender being the obvious primary two). The volleyball community has done a terrible job promoting women and providing role models for them, making it too easy for ADs to do what they are prone to do in the first place and hire people that look like all the other coaches and also just so happen to look like them. Basketball has 21 ncaa championships and 8 of our 11 Olympic coaches to look up to and emulate. Volleyball has not a single ncaa championship and one lone Olympic coach who we had to import from China because our own olympians do not see that as an option for them. Top level club coaches are mostly men, so that a woman competing for a medal in open stands out as novel. Then why aren’t KBB CJL et al moving on to the bigger better jobs? Why did people like Litzau and Tortorello-Nelson get out of the game?
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2019 9:43:19 GMT -5
How many paid assistants exist in women’s basketball vs women’s volleyball? The answer is 5 to 2 I believe. Better work life balance exists in women’s hoops due to better funding due to getting the equivalencies from men’s basketball. Assuming this is true (I have no reason to believe it is not), how does that translate into dramatically fewer women coaching volleyball than basketball? Its been argued here that men pursue the women's vb jobs because they pay better. The top women's basketball jobs pay more than the top women's vb jobs. Why doesn't the same argument apply and why aren't men in all the highest paying women's basketball jobs? Also, they weren't always very good pay and most of the top current female bb coaches started when HC pay was not as good, but the percentage of female coaches was much higher. Prior to title IX women's college coaches were over 90% female. That has dropped substantially and is a major concern in bb. The level bb has dropped to is a level vb could not ever even imagine. The percentage of female coaches in women's volleyball was low from the start. The same AD is hiring the two respective positions - head women’s VB and BB. So the AD has a bias in one sport and not the other? Or is he/she just hiring the best candidate?
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Post by n00b on May 4, 2019 10:18:56 GMT -5
How many paid assistants exist in women’s basketball vs women’s volleyball? The answer is 5 to 2 I believe. Better work life balance exists in women’s hoops due to better funding due to getting the equivalencies from men’s basketball. Assuming this is true (I have no reason to believe it is not), how does that translate into dramatically fewer women coaching volleyball than basketball? Its been argued here that men pursue the women's vb jobs because they pay better. The top women's basketball jobs pay more than the top women's vb jobs. Why doesn't the same argument apply and why aren't men in all the highest paying women's basketball jobs? Also, they weren't always very good pay and most of the top current female bb coaches started when HC pay was not as good, but the percentage of female coaches was much higher. Prior to title IX women's college coaches were over 90% female. That has dropped substantially and is a major concern in bb. The level bb has dropped to is a level vb could not ever even imagine. The percentage of female coaches in women's volleyball was low from the start. 99.9% of people here agree that if there is systematic sexism or racism that is preventing certain individuals from advancing in this profession, that's a horrible thing and needs to be corrected. However, the argument that the current system only ends up with 50% D1 female head coaches (and only 1 out of 14 in the Big Ten) therefore the system is rigged against women seems bogus to me. Construction workers and nurses are professions with massive gender imbalance too, but I don't think it's due to sexism in hiring. My experience is that not only are ADs 'gender-blind' in the hiring process, they will almost always choose the female if a male and female have similar qualifications. Plus, as somebody mentioned earlier, the applicant pool for most coaching positions (both head and assistant coaches) is typically 80%+ male. Identify the policies/people/actions that prevent women from advancing and I'll fight right along with you. However, using final percentages as evidence doesn't prove anything to me (just like the nursing and construction fields).
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Post by ineedajob on May 4, 2019 10:42:07 GMT -5
I saw that picture of all the guys and initially thought "Oh, this is a bad look." However, I still don't think this is as much a "volleyball" problem where ADs are only hiring men because they're sexist pigs as it is more a problem that there aren't enough premium coaching jobs in men's volleyball. Other societal problems also come into play, such as the stigma that (assuming a traditional marriage) men should be the primary earner in the household and the fact that (in the real world) men are paid more for doing the same jobs. For a married couple where the woman is a volleyball coach, it is likely that she doesn't make as much as her husband's "real job." It is also true that it wouldn't make sense for their family for her to pursue a more premium position if that means that he would have to find a new job elsewhere. If it is a married couple where the man is a volleyball coach, it is relatively more likely that his wife is underpaid in her "real job" and their salaries might be more comparable. Now, it would make sense for that male coach to try to find a more premium job. In traditionally married couples, it is more likely that a couple is willing to relocate for the husband's job than the wife's (I have no statistics for that, but I think it's true). This could prevent a married female coach from relocating to pursue a more premium position. Along with that, There are many reasons why coaching Women's volleyball is more appealing than coaching in Men's volleyball. There are far fewer men's jobs across the country. The majority of the men's jobs not paid as well as women's jobs. If I am married and my partner has a "real job" that pays more than mine, I am less likely to uproot my family for a job that does not pay as well as my partner's. A comparable job in women's volleyball pays more money, making it more likely that I could out-earn my partner, and more desirable for me to want to uproot my family. Additionally, even if I am unwilling to uproot my family for a coaching job, it is more likely that I live closer to an institution that has a women's volleyball program, making that job more desirable to me. Just a couple other factors that are being ignored in my opinion. There are so many places across the country where men play volleyball, but it isn't a "sanctioned" sport for whatever reason. Another thing to account for is the disparity in scholarship money and availability between men's and women's college volleyball. Playing volleyball is not a way for most boys to pay for college, but it is for girls. Yes, that can result in a girl player receiving better training throughout college, whereas it might result in a boy playing college club or even starting to coach and look at the game like a coach from the time they're 17/18 years old. I think your numbers are discounting the NCVF (college club volleyball). While there are also women's teams and players, the top men's players much more closely resemble their DI counterparts than do the top women's players. Ignoring the numbers for a moment, It is a strange and troubling assumption that because there aren't as many men's jobs, that it is perfectly reasonable for men to take all the best women's jobs, especially if they pay well. You said maybe it is harder for a woman to coach if she wants kids and a family. Muffett McGraw is married with a kid and Pat Summit was married with a kid. Kim Mulkey is married with 2 kids.
You said you think there are more men playing on club teams than women, because fewer schools field men's teams. I agree with you. There are 10 times more college female players than male, but high school participation rates are about 7 to 1. You can shake all the trees you want and you aren't going to bring the ratio much lower than that, and you aren't getting it anywhere close to the ratio in basketball where there are slightly more boys than girls.I agree that ADs aren't being blindly sexist pigs. It's much more subtle than that. The ADs are obviously willing to hire female basketball coaches. It has been shown time and again in different industries that people are dramatically more likely to hire someone that looks like them if there is no conscious effort to prevent that from happening (race and gender being the obvious primary two). The volleyball community has done a terrible job promoting women and providing role models for them, making it too easy for ADs to do what they are prone to do in the first place and hire people that look like all the other coaches and also just so happen to look like them. Basketball has 21 ncaa championships and 8 of our 11 Olympic coaches to look up to and emulate. Volleyball has not a single ncaa championship and one lone Olympic coach who we had to import from China because our own olympians do not see that as an option for them. Top level club coaches are mostly men, so that a woman competing for a medal in open stands out as novel. I agree with you, and I think that's a societal problem more than a volleyball problem I don't think I was trying to say that it's harder to coach with a family. I was trying to say (and doing a poor job explaining myself) that, in volleyball (kids or not), it would be more difficult for a female Assistant Coach making 35k/year to pursue that higher-paying position of 45k/year when her husband has a "real job" that pays 55k. Now, if that Assistant Coach were male and was making 35k/year, he might pursue that higher-paying position of 45k/year because his wife's "real job" only pays her 40k. Also more of a societal problem. Let's say I trust your numbers of 7-to-1 for HS VB participation for girls-to-boys. Girls' HS volleyball is a sport that is sanctioned in all 50 states, I believe. Boys' HS volleyball is not sanctioned in all 50 states (probably not even half of them), so it is more challenging for them to find opportunities. This also contributes to your argument that they don't get the high-level training. I've lived places where there is no "sanctioned" boys volleyball, but there are still boys playing rec., beach, outdoor, club, anything they can. Now, those numbers absolutely do not outnumber the girls in those areas, but it sure cuts in to that 7-to-1 ratio. "Its been argued here that men pursue the women's vb jobs because they pay better. The top women's basketball jobs pay more than the top women's vb jobs. Why doesn't the same argument apply and why aren't men in all the highest paying women's basketball jobs? Also, they weren't always very good pay and most of the top current female bb coaches started when HC pay was not as good, but the percentage of female coaches was much higher. Prior to title IX women's college coaches were over 90% female. That has dropped substantially and is a major concern in bb. The level bb has dropped to is a level vb could not ever even imagine. The percentage of female coaches in women's volleyball was low from the start." Sorry to pull from another post, but a couple things about this that caught my attention. I think the argument is somewhat lessened because there are so many more better-paying men's basketball jobs. I don't know what a graphic representation would look like, but I think we can agree that that there are far more men's basketball jobs that pay significantly more than women's basketball jobs than there are men's volleyball jobs that pay significantly more than women's volleyball jobs. Another thing, I think women's basketball jobs pay better than women's volleyball jobs. If you have the same scenario that I used before with the married couple, a basketball coach's salary is more likely to influence them to uproot and move for a position because there's more money. Example (with completely made-up, hypothetical numbers forthcoming. And tbh, I'm not entirely sure where I'm going with this): if there are 1000 volleyball coaching jobs, maybe 10% (100) make more than the average income of a person (let's say 50k). There are more basketball coaching jobs (conservatively, let's say 2000 to account for the fact that there are men's and women's jobs AND they can have more than the 2 assistants volleyball gets), and because basketball is a revenue-generating sport, I will say, conservatively, that maybe 20% of those coaches make more than that 50k.... And now I've lost my train of thought, maybe someone else can pick up the pieces....
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Post by lo4um on May 4, 2019 11:19:43 GMT -5
If someone wants a job, you go out and get it. Work for it. All of these coaches worked to get to where they’re at. There is a reason Nebraska and Penn State have won more championships than the rest of the conference. Saying we need to hire more woman to “diversify” is like saying Penn State and Nebraska need to give up a few championships each to different programs to diversify the winning in the conference. It’s not fair that Nebraska and Penn State are the only two that get to win. Oh wait no it is fair, they are doing the right things. All teams have the opportunity to play 30ish games to prove to a committee they’re NCAA worthy. From there all teams that earned their right compete for a title.
I don’t see anyone asking coaches to diversify teams starting lineups based on skin color, eye color or what kind hair they have.
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Post by bkedane on May 4, 2019 11:43:16 GMT -5
Championship programs? that covers 2 of the 14. What are you arguing for the rest? When was this magical time with lots of female Head Coaches in the B1G? Oh, you just made that up? How long has it been since the B1G even hired a female head coach? Looks like over 10 years if you don't count the 2011 season where MN had an assistant act as interim for a year while waiting for Hugh. Since then it has been in the neighborhood of 10 or 11 male hires in a row. Yup, that sure is progress for a sport with 10 times more female players. And most of those male hires didn't have to cut their teeth at mid-majors to show success as HCs before getting the big chair (Aird, Hughes, Tamas, Hugh) as a few people have suggested the women need to do before getting the B1G jobs. 2 of those 4 come from championship level success as assistants at Penn State. Some of the best jobs go to assistants like that. So here is one small case study. Where are the women who had similar championship level success at Penn State? Rockwell had many opportunities to take high level head coaching jobs. She declined and eventually left the college game for personal reasons. How about K Davidson? While serving as a successful assistant she also had opportunities but chose not to pursue them and eventually left the college game for family reasons. Maybe the ADs should have tried to force them to stay in the college game to take head coaching jobs at strong programs.
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Post by hochee on May 4, 2019 11:45:28 GMT -5
Title IX has driven up female athletic participation and created a fascinating setting to learn lots of things, e.g., contrast between males and females in terms of group dynamics, biology, social barometers, etc.... I'd say the club VB economy, the college VB economy and the disparity in numbers between female players and coaches represent equilibrium (not equality) and market-driven consequences. Human affairs are more like chemistry than math and I'll bet the coaches' conversations trended more towards coping/succeeding within this this equilibrium than driving towards equality, in approximately the same ratio as male/female coaches.
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Post by n00b on May 4, 2019 12:47:11 GMT -5
Citing entrenched sexism in unrelated fields is not justification for it in volleyball, especially when we actually have a directly applicable example in NCAA women's basketball. South African apartheid does not make it OK for you to be a racist, just because they are worse. I keep hearing the same basic argument here as the argument that women and minorities have just as much opportunity to be elected president but they just aren't as good as white men. Wait, you're also arguing that the gender disparity in the field of nursing is due to sexist hiring practices? Name these policies/people/actions that are stopping women so we can all get on board fighting them.
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Post by bigjohn043 on May 4, 2019 13:19:54 GMT -5
Pursuing a high end career in almost any profession requires immense sacrifice. You have to be smart, but you also have to work long hours, move to get that next opportunity up the ladder and make other personal sacrifices.
I look at my top-5 business school class from about 20 years ago. We had about 1/3 women. Today, a big chunk of them no longer work and another big chunk took significant time out and now work in what I would call a lifestyle job. And FWIW, while some did this for family reasons, others just decided they didn't want the grind and a couple decided to be single parents. Others by the way continued to work away but many didn't take that next great job because they couldn't move their spouse to a new city. I can only think of one woman who married someone who was willing to sacrifice his career and she is absolutely killing it.
OTOH, off the top of my head, I don't have a single male classmate who isn't still pounding away. I do have one classmate who made $50M early and essentially retired.
Over the years Denise Corlett at Stanford could have easily had some of the best jobs in college volleyball. She always passed. I think that is fine and good for her in knowing what will make her happy.
Maybe the gender mis-match is due to some vague sense of lack of role models and what a coach looks like. Or maybe it is the result of individuals each pursuing what they really want.
When a coaching position opens up in college what do you think the mix is of applicants by gender?
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Post by lo4um on May 4, 2019 13:41:16 GMT -5
If someone wants a job, you go out and get it. Work for it. All of these coaches worked to get to where they’re at. There is a reason Nebraska and Penn State have won more championships than the rest of the conference. Saying we need to hire more woman to “diversify” is like saying Penn State and Nebraska need to give up a few championships each to different programs to diversify the winning in the conference. It’s not fair that Nebraska and Penn State are the only two that get to win. Oh wait no it is fair, they are doing the right things. All teams have the opportunity to play 30ish games to prove to a committee they’re NCAA worthy. From there all teams that earned their right compete for a title. I don’t see anyone asking coaches to diversify teams starting lineups based on skin color, eye color or what kind hair they have. PSU has 7 of 38 championships. NE has 5 of 38 Men have won 38 of 38. See the difference there? That is why we have had all those old, white, male presidents. They just want it more and work harder... There is absolutely a push among coaches to expand lineups based on skin color. You are awfully naive if you don't know that. 38 times a man has one a national championship and you think that man shouldn’t even been hired in the first place? Since you know, he is a man. I know teams want a diverse team but I said “no one is diversifying their STARTING LINEUP due to skin color, eye color or what kind hair they have.”
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Post by tornadovball on May 4, 2019 15:33:31 GMT -5
The BIG 10 will be stacked as always. Wisconsin, Minnesota, Nebraska, Penn St, Purdue, Michigan all could be top 10 caliber teams with others close.
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