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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2019 17:55:24 GMT -5
Isn't that how it works everywhere?
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Post by mikegarrison on Aug 25, 2019 18:25:19 GMT -5
Isn't that how it works everywhere? Yes, except we don't usually do it so deliberately.
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Post by guest2 on Aug 25, 2019 19:21:32 GMT -5
Overpopulation is a concern. I mean, you can’t: 1. Tell people not to have children (or just have one child), Why not?
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Post by volleyguy on Aug 25, 2019 19:28:50 GMT -5
Overpopulation is a concern. I mean, you can’t: 1. Tell people not to have children (or just have one child), Why not? Ask Planned Parenthood. "And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein."
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Post by gnu2vball on Aug 25, 2019 19:44:24 GMT -5
It's the same mentality -- and I'm not saying it's gnu's mentality -- that the ocean is too big for us to destroy. That we can't overfish it or dump too much oil and garbage into it. That too is being proven false. The planet cannot sustain this many human beings, not if we continue to consume the way we will continue to consume. I think you're being unfair here. I don't think there's no cost for pollution. I don't think unfettered emissions are cost-free. I worry about overfishing and plastic pollution. Regarding population, I'm thinking that population levels are likely to level off. Right now, large portions of the Eurasian land mass are experiencing population decreases. North American population has pretty much stabilized. Maybe things aren't so bad? Or maybe there are glimmers of hope? Just because I'm not in total agreement with you doesn't mean that I discount everything you say.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2019 20:46:18 GMT -5
Like I said, I wasn't claiming this was your position. I put that disclaimer in there because I really didn't want you to think that was what I was saying.
North America is probably not an issue, nor is Europe, in terms of population growth. But we have already done a major share of the damage. Now the rest of the world is growing AND developing. The solution cannot be to tell the rest of the world they can't. Not unless we do something as well.
What is going on in Brazil is horrifying. But completely predictable. It's what we do.
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Post by volleyguy on Aug 25, 2019 21:08:40 GMT -5
Like I said, I wasn't claiming this was your position. I put that disclaimer in there because I really didn't want you to think that was what I was saying. North America is probably not an issue, nor is Europe, in terms of population growth. But we have already done a major share of the damage. Now the rest of the world is growing AND developing. The solution cannot be to tell the rest of the world they can't. Not unless we do something as well. What is going on in Brazil is horrifying. But completely predictable. It's what we do. I wish you would consider (or reconsider) some of the underlying implications in what you posted. Population growth in industrialized countries tends to decrease over time. We see this in Japan, in Europe, in the USA and in Russia (which is only marginally an industrialized country imo). At the same time, the average life span increases, so we see a pattern where the aged population may eventually exceed the youth population in each of those examples I listed. The implication is therefore that concerns about population growth are centered on poor, developing countries (i.e. non-white majority countries) that threaten to create the swarming hordes that will overtake the world. And that's not a new idea--it was encapsulated by Malthus. It really is an issue of capacity. Does the fact that industrialized country approached their population capacity before underdeveloped countries mean that the underdeveloped countries have to max their capacity earlier (this question is partially based on the assumption that the populations of developed countries consciously decide to have fewer children)? We probably agree on what the necessary action is: Every country, but especially the industrialized ones, need to make an effort to reduce their footprint.
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Post by mikegarrison on Aug 25, 2019 21:35:17 GMT -5
Birthrates are tied to lots of things. Education of women and political rights for women are major factors. Also, people tend to have fewer kids when it's pretty certain that their kids will survive to adulthood.
Most modern, free, educated societies are running at sub-replacement levels of children, but typically immigration makes up for that. The societies facing severe "elderly top-heavy" demographic crises tend to be those who severely restrict immigration.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 8:14:22 GMT -5
volleyguy, I do think I've tried to express the complexity (and dangers) of this issue and that the industrialized world has already done most of the damage. But my point is that the planet cannot sustain an industrialized population of the current numbers, let alone a growing one (and MORE industrialization). We are the problem. But I ain't Thanos. That's not my solution.
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Post by jayj79 on Aug 26, 2019 8:22:29 GMT -5
But I ain't Thanos. That's not my solution. People would just repopulate (like rabbits) if the Thanos plan was put into effect, so in order to be a true solution, there would have to be a snap every century or so. (and really, it should be more fine-tuned than just "half of ALL life", as it really should just cull those species that are overpopulated and leave the populations of those species that are underpopulated/endangered alone.) But I digress.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 8:26:26 GMT -5
He also came to the conclusion (duh) that the 1/2 left over might be a tad resentful and depressed. He really didn't think the thing through.
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Post by volleyguy on Aug 26, 2019 9:00:09 GMT -5
Like I said, I wasn't claiming this was your position. I put that disclaimer in there because I really didn't want you to think that was what I was saying. North America is probably not an issue, nor is Europe, in terms of population growth. But we have already done a major share of the damage. Now the rest of the world is growing AND developing. The solution cannot be to tell the rest of the world they can't. Not unless we do something as well. What is going on in Brazil is horrifying. But completely predictable. It's what we do. I don't believe that we are at or very near capacity. Of course, at the current pace, we likely will reach some sort of capacity, but, what is needed is radical change in how we manage our resources, and the industrialized nations should lead the way--if for no other reason than because they can.
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