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Post by mikegarrison on Dec 8, 2019 10:38:05 GMT -5
And I quoted everything the f*cking rule says. I can't answer what's not in the rule. Maybe the definition is somewhere else, but I don't see it. If you can't define the "bench area", then quit claiming she was in the bench area. Dude, whatever the hell the definition of the bench area is, she was very definitely in it.
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Post by stevehorn on Dec 8, 2019 10:39:14 GMT -5
If you can't define the "bench area", then quit claiming she was in the bench area. Dude, whatever the hell the definition of the bench area is, she was very definitely in it. Dude, you don't even know where she was.
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Post by tomclen on Dec 8, 2019 10:40:18 GMT -5
Another 'where is the line' hypothetical:
A former player sits directly behind her schools team bench in set one. She remains in that seat in set two when the teams switch sides. At the break, will she then be allowed to huddle with the players or coaches and talk about what she heard the visiting coaches say?
I don't think that is anywhere near what happened in the Khat Bell case. I agree, it was probably just a fiery pep talk. All probably very innocent.
But maybe some other team won't be be as high-minded in the future.
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Post by tomclen on Dec 8, 2019 10:42:21 GMT -5
Dude, whatever the hell the definition of the bench area is, she was very definitely in it. Dude, you don't even know where she was. You're correct, of course. No one has any evidence of where she was.
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Post by sevb on Dec 8, 2019 10:42:28 GMT -5
The full rule from the Pre-Championship Manual. TRAVEL PARTY/SQUAD SIZE/TEAM BENCHES [Reference: Per Diem and Transportation in the Division I General Section.] Transportation expenses and per diem will be provided for the official travel party of 22. Please refer to the NCAATravel policies for all information regarding transportation and per diem expenses. Travel policies can be found online at ncaa.org. [Reference: Bylaw 31.1.5 in the NCAA Manual.] Participating teams are limited to a maximum of 15 players in uniform. An institution that is advised it is in violation of this regulation and does not promptly conform to it shall automatically forfeit the competition. There shall be no inordinate delay of the competition to allow the institution to conform to the rule. A team’s bench limit is 25 and team benches will be set at 16. If an institution wishes to include its own team doctor in the bench area, that individual must occupy one of the 16 chairs and is in addition to the bench limit of 25. While the bench limit will remain at 25, the squad size will remain at 15. However, within the 25, two additional student-athletes can be on the bench not in uniform for a total of 17. The event manager may provide additional chairs for the tournament doctor and a security representative. Participant passes will be provided for a maximum of 25 institutional representatives. Three all-access credentials will be provided for the institution’s administration. Not what I asked. As I asked, what defines the "bench area"? 1.3.4 Warm-Up Area The warm-up area begins at the end of the team bench or at the end line (whichever is nearer the scorer’s table), and is located at least 1�75 meters (70 inches) from the court and service zone� (See Rule 5�2�2�1�) 1.3.5 Team Area The team area includes the team court, the free zone surrounding it, the team bench and the warm-up area� Team benches or chairs are to be placed outside the free zone on the right and left of the scorer’s table not nearer the center line than the attack line�
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Post by recleague on Dec 8, 2019 10:43:22 GMT -5
At the least it was inappropriate. A pre-match pep talk is fine. But it should not be ok for any spectator to come into a team's huddle during a match.
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Post by hornshouse23 on Dec 8, 2019 10:51:47 GMT -5
Another 'where is the line' hypothetical: A former player sits directly behind her schools team bench in set one. She remains in that seat in set two when the teams switch sides. At the break, will she then be allowed to huddle with the players or coaches and talk about what she heard the visiting coaches say? I don't think that is anywhere near what happened in the Khat Bell case. I agree, it was probably just a fiery pep talk. All probably very innocent. But maybe some other team won't be be as high-minded in the future. I’m sorry, it’s laughable to think a team is going to send a bench spy to report back what the other team is saying. Even if they understand that team’s specific lingo and tactics, what could they possibly gain that’s not being executed on the court for the actual coaches to see? ‘They’re serving so and so...’ ‘no sh*t Sherlock, they served so and so x amount of times’. If you’re relying on that kind of thing as a tactical measure, you have some bigger issues to sort out. In this situation, Khat gave the team a colorfully worded pep talk. She doesn’t have any coaching experience to my knowledge so it’s not the same thing as a retired coach or current coach coming down from the stands with a clipboard. To call her a 26th coaching staff member is beyond a reach. A closer example would be if she ran into the girls on their way to locker room and shouted ‘get your sh*t together, don’t embarrass the alumn’ on their way past.
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Post by bbg95 on Dec 8, 2019 10:54:08 GMT -5
To be honest, I think this is the least consequential volleyball "controversy" since the Stanford whiteboard incident.
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Post by tomclen on Dec 8, 2019 10:55:47 GMT -5
Another 'where is the line' hypothetical: A former player sits directly behind her schools team bench in set one. She remains in that seat in set two when the teams switch sides. At the break, will she then be allowed to huddle with the players or coaches and talk about what she heard the visiting coaches say? I don't think that is anywhere near what happened in the Khat Bell case. I agree, it was probably just a fiery pep talk. All probably very innocent. But maybe some other team won't be be as high-minded in the future. I’m sorry, it’s laughable to think a team is going to send a bench spy to report back what the other team is saying. Yes, nothing of the sort has ever happened in sports.
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Post by n00b on Dec 8, 2019 10:59:45 GMT -5
Anyone saying this is a rules violation without quoting an actual rule is an idiot. I would really love to know what rule she was breaking. While we're at it, I'd like to know why you care. She wasn't giving tactical advice; it was lighting a fire. If you truly believe what Khat Bell said in that house huddle had any impact on the outcome, you're living in Nevernever land. It’s very likely a violation of the 3-coach (plus a volunteer) max. If she said so much as “stay aggressive and take big swings”, that’s tactical feedback. As a high-level volleyball player, I find it almost impossible that she gave no tactical feedback like the example I gave above. That being said, I don’t think it made a difference in the match and it’s an extremely minor NCAA violation that warrants no more than a slap on the wrist and the NCAA telling Texas to be more proactive about not letting it happen again.
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Post by huskergeek on Dec 8, 2019 11:00:24 GMT -5
This has always seemed like a grey area in the NCAA rules. College football teams have had celebrities act as "Honorary Coaches" on the sidelines where they are free to interact with players. In blowouts, they have even been asked to "call" a play. Bell's status as a professional player might push this further into the grey as she is much more likely to have some valid insight into the game than Joe/Jane Schmoe actor/actress. UT already has an assigned volunteer coach Riley Beuchler, I'm guessing that UCSB could argue that Texas effectively had two volunteer coaches which I believe is against the rules and that Texas had not notified the NCAA compliance office of any coaching changes prior to the game which is also against NCAA rules. Neither of those is going to get a result overturned, but there would probably be an adjustment regarding the rules put in place for next year to specifically prohibit exactly this situation and would have an official on the books penalty like loss of the set (or potentially designate one university friend who is allowed to be on the sidelines for a game and therefore make the situation legal). Which is generally how obscure rules get created anyway. HG Verdict: Violation... sort of. Assuming my several quick Google searches turned up relevant results anyway. Oh Good Lord. Witnessing the husker fan try to "google the internet" to find a rules interpretation is a 9th level of hell experience. Here let me do the heavy lifting for you. She's not a countable coach if she didn't do anything technical or tactical in the huddle. (see rule 11.7 of the NCAA Division I manual below) The burden of proof is on the one making the accusation and so far there is nothing but evidence saying all she did was provide words of encouragement. By the way, there is a P5 School out there with regulations for non coaches that specifically lists permissible activities of non-coaches as being in team huddles and providing words of encouragement. Can we get back to volleyball now? Or would bball like to start some transfer rumors about our players? He seems to have moved on this year to trash talking former ones. Okay. First thanks for the resource. It was one of the ones I looked at, as was the NCAA Volleyball Rule book. However, both seem to deal with Staff Members who are Non-Coaches in what I've seen so far. In fact, that is what rule 11.7 you're quoting is titled. "11.7 Limitations on the Number and Duties of Coaches and Noncoaching Staff Members." The D1 Manual is 430 pages and the Volleyball Rule book is 140 so I confess I haven't gone cover to cover on them yet, but I haven't seen a guideline or rule for Non-Staff interacting inside a huddle. That doesn't seem to be covered anywhere I can find or have read yet. I would very much like to read that resource. There is a fundamental difference between listed personnel joining a huddle for encouragement and an unaffiliated party joining a huddle for any purpose. So, like I said it seems to be a grey area. I am still reading, and if I find a part dealing with this situation specifically and it turns out I am incorrect, I will freely admit to being so.
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Post by justahick on Dec 8, 2019 11:02:35 GMT -5
Anyone who thinks this isn't a violation has never had to deal with the bench list for NCAA Tournament matches. There is a very strict list about who and how many are allowed on the bench during the match. This comes to play a lot on teams with a lot of subs to the extent that injured players, red-shirts, and the bottom of the roster are required to leave the bench area after warm-up. If some players on the roster aren't allowed, there is no way an alum is allowed in the bench area (unless she is listed on the bench list).
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Post by pavsec5row10 on Dec 8, 2019 11:03:34 GMT -5
My understanding from both a B1G ref and a Hall of Fame coach is it is a violation of NCAA tournament guidelines, unless Khat Bell was on the required list of 25 people who would be on Texas' bench.
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Post by stevehorn on Dec 8, 2019 11:04:20 GMT -5
Dude, you don't even know where she was. You're correct, of course. No one has any evidence of where she was. Most likely I knew where she was long before you did.
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Post by mikegarrison on Dec 8, 2019 11:08:44 GMT -5
Oh Good Lord. Witnessing the husker fan try to "google the internet" to find a rules interpretation is a 9th level of hell experience. Here let me do the heavy lifting for you. She's not a countable coach if she didn't do anything technical or tactical in the huddle. (see rule 11.7 of the NCAA Division I manual below) The burden of proof is on the one making the accusation and so far there is nothing but evidence saying all she did was provide words of encouragement. By the way, there is a P5 School out there with regulations for non coaches that specifically lists permissible activities of non-coaches as being in team huddles and providing words of encouragement. Can we get back to volleyball now? Or would bball like to start some transfer rumors about our players? He seems to have moved on this year to trash talking former ones. Okay. First thanks for the resource. It was one of the ones I looked at, as was the NCAA Volleyball Rule book. However, both seem to deal with Staff Members who are Non-Coaches in what I've seen so far. In fact, that is what rule 11.7 you're quoting is titled. "11.7 Limitations on the Number and Duties of Coaches and Noncoaching Staff Members." The D1 Manual is 430 pages and the Volleyball Rule book is 140 so I confess I haven't gone cover to cover on them yet, but I haven't seen a guideline or rule for Non-Staff interacting inside a huddle. That doesn't seem to be covered anywhere I can find. I would very much like to read that resource. There is a fundamental difference between listed personnel joining a huddle for encouragement and an unaffiliated party joining a huddle for any purpose. So, like I said it seems to be a grey area. I am still reading, and if I find a part dealing with this situation specifically and it turns out I am incorrect, I will freely admit to being so. The rule is actually pretty clear. Anyone who gives tactical instruction counts as a coach. If all it took was to say "this person isn't a staff member", then any school could have all the coaches they wanted just by saying, "Oh, these four extra coaches aren't staff members, so they're cool." Obviously some fan yelling from the stands, "Stop tipping so much!" isn't a coach. The problem here is that the Texas coaching staff seems to have willingly allowed Bell to come down and join the huddle. That certainly implies some responsibility for it. I mean, they could have called security and had her escorted away (something they probably would have done for any other random fan). The fact that they didn't shows that they gave at least implicit permission.
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