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Post by n00b on Jun 4, 2024 9:43:36 GMT -5
I'm curious, do you feel the same way about cigarettes? Regardless, in the summer of 2020 there should've been more messaging that poor diet and a sedentary lifestyle WILL make you more likely to die from COVID. The choice is yours. In my personal life, I favor love, firm guidance, and setting a good example over shame. While I think that an individual "feeling ashamed" over a personal failure can be, in limited doses, a healthy emotion, I don't think that effective leadership involves shaming others. In my opinion, that's more likely to damage trust and cause the person to ignore guidance in the future. How many Trump supporters turned around and said "you know what, Hillary was right, I AM deplorable. I should change my ways!" But from a government and public policy perspective, I'm uninterested in any of that. At that scale, I'm a materialist. To the extent that we spend public resources on public health, the focus should be on the most proven and cost-effective interventions. I agree that US public health messaging was poor around the benefits of overall health as it relates to COVID. I agree that closing parks, playgrounds, beaches etc was insane, anti-scientific, and borderline criminal.
And I admitted earlier use of the phrase "fat shaming" was hyperbolic. I just think the pendulum has swung SO far in the other direction that there needs to be a course correction. I think there is a way to tell Lizzo that she needs to get healthy rather than holding her up as some sort role model of acceptance.
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Post by joetrinsey on Jun 4, 2024 9:50:44 GMT -5
I think there is a way to tell Lizzo
I couldn't be less interested in telling Lizzo anything. She's an entertainer, who cares.
Also: as a conservative you're never going to win any culture war issues so it's a losing battle for you strategically.
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Jun 4, 2024 10:28:37 GMT -5
I think Fauci is a despicable human being. I guess I'd like to know... why? Even if you don't agree with him or some decisions he's made... what makes him a despicable human being? He destroyed lives in the scientific community. He lied to the American people on multiple occasions. And he had a personal interest and investment in the Lab in China and diverted all discussion and research away from the Lab leak hypothesis. That said - 'despicable' is over the top. I mean there are truly many people that are despicable. But, I consider COVID to have been a major event in my lifetime and his role in this from start to finish ended up being destructive. He was ill equipped to making policy during COVID - which he effectively was given the reigns to do this. For this, I blame Trump and then Biden for ceding this authority to him. From a policy standpoint - this is the biggest mark against Trump for me and one that I never understood all those in the MAGA movement that doesn't like Fauci, were so willing to give Trump a pass on this.
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Post by aardvark on Jun 4, 2024 10:30:16 GMT -5
Conservative leaders aren't really trying to win culture war battles, in my opinion. Instead, I feel they are using them as a distraction to cover giving money to the rich.
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Post by bluepenquin on Jun 4, 2024 10:38:13 GMT -5
Right - the dead is already dead. But information on how to prevent (reduce the odds) of the next plane crash - or the next worldwide epidemic is hugely valuable. It can save lives. Good point. So let’s say it was a lab leak. 100% What do you think the solutions would be to prevent the next pandemic/epidemic following a lab leak? Maybe restricting travel from that area? Maybe closing schools and businesses in that area and others affected? Maybe working on a vaccine for it? Using items that may help prevent the spread of the cause? Like masks? Or ventilation? Just spitballing here. Maybe creating a task force to help research and prevent the spread of things like Ebola and Covid? Any other solutions you could think of? I mean, those can only be thought of if this is a lab leak. If it’s not, then we’ll just have to throw our hands up and wait to think of other solutions. Oh and I just tested positive for Covid about 5 days ago. Fever for 2 days, coughing, congestion, some body aches. My wife hasn’t gotten it and my two young children haven’t either. Very fortunate. I mean - knowing the cause for something that killed 7 million people would be something that is fairly important to know. Like, maybe we need MUCH better safeguards when studying and working with highly infectious diseases? It is like saying - Chernobyl happened, those that died are dead. Those that will die, will die. Why do we need to know how this happened? Why should we even try to learn from a nuclear power plant meltdown?
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Post by n00b on Jun 4, 2024 10:39:23 GMT -5
Conservative leaders aren't really trying to win culture war battles, in my opinion. Instead, I feel they are using them as a distraction to cover giving money to the rich. Is being healthy a conservative thing? Anyway, more unhealthy people means a LOT more money going to health care providers and pharmaceutical companies. There isn't a ton of profit to be made in eating salad (unless you go to SweetGreen) and going for a jog.
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Post by aardvark on Jun 4, 2024 10:46:25 GMT -5
Lettuce eat salad!
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Post by aardvark on Jun 4, 2024 11:10:57 GMT -5
I guess I'd like to know... why? Even if you don't agree with him or some decisions he's made... what makes him a despicable human being? He destroyed lives in the scientific community. He lied to the American people on multiple occasions. And he had a personal interest and investment in the Lab in China and diverted all discussion and research away from the Lab leak hypothesis. That said - 'despicable' is over the top. I mean there are truly many people that are despicable. But, I consider COVID to have been a major event in my lifetime and his role in this from start to finish ended up being destructive. He was ill equipped to making policy during COVID - which he effectively was given the reigns to do this. For this, I blame Trump and then Biden for ceding this authority to him. From a policy standpoint - this is the biggest mark against Trump for me and one that I never understood all those in the MAGA movement that doesn't like Fauci, were so willing to give Trump a pass on this. You are talking like the lab leak origin is a "done deal". I see no indication of that. Earlier research showed that the initial breakout was associated with the market place, not the lab.
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Post by oldnewbie on Jun 4, 2024 11:15:28 GMT -5
I guess I'd like to know... why? Even if you don't agree with him or some decisions he's made... what makes him a despicable human being? He destroyed lives in the scientific community. He lied to the American people on multiple occasions. And he had a personal interest and investment in the Lab in China and diverted all discussion and research away from the Lab leak hypothesis. That said - 'despicable' is over the top. I mean there are truly many people that are despicable. But, I consider COVID to have been a major event in my lifetime and his role in this from start to finish ended up being destructive. He was ill equipped to making policy during COVID - which he effectively was given the reigns to do this. For this, I blame Trump and then Biden for ceding this authority to him. From a policy standpoint - this is the biggest mark against Trump for me and one that I never understood all those in the MAGA movement that doesn't like Fauci, were so willing to give Trump a pass on this. This is all very general and vague. Give one or more specific examples where he intentionally lied for some nefarious purpose. I know early on he over-emphasized cloth masks and downplayed N95, but we know that was due to a critical shortage in N95 masks needed for first responders and hospitals. I don't hold that against him nearly as much as the failure of putting a completely ill-equipped Kushner in charge of getting masks, with the associated ineptitude associated with greed and politics involved in that effort.
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Jun 4, 2024 11:53:12 GMT -5
He destroyed lives in the scientific community. He lied to the American people on multiple occasions. And he had a personal interest and investment in the Lab in China and diverted all discussion and research away from the Lab leak hypothesis. That said - 'despicable' is over the top. I mean there are truly many people that are despicable. But, I consider COVID to have been a major event in my lifetime and his role in this from start to finish ended up being destructive. He was ill equipped to making policy during COVID - which he effectively was given the reigns to do this. For this, I blame Trump and then Biden for ceding this authority to him. From a policy standpoint - this is the biggest mark against Trump for me and one that I never understood all those in the MAGA movement that doesn't like Fauci, were so willing to give Trump a pass on this. This is all very general and vague. Give one or more specific examples where he intentionally lied for some nefarious purpose. I know early on he over-emphasized cloth masks and downplayed N95, but we know that was due to a critical shortage in N95 masks needed for first responders and hospitals. I don't hold that against him nearly as much as the failure of putting a completely ill-equipped Kushner in charge of getting masks, with the associated ineptitude associated with greed and politics involved in that effort. But that was him lying to the American people about masks. We now know that he lied about the 6 foot rule, he just made that up out of his ass. Of course anyone with half a brain new this was total BS at the time. He has lied about his involvement with the Wuhan Lab and the use of gain of function research that was going on there. He lied about the source of the leak - when there was virologist from the beginning that worked for him that thought it was a real possibility, but he led the nation to believe that there was no possibility of a lab leak, and squashed any further research on this. And he lied about 'following the science' throughout the pandemic - and constantly described policy positions and scientific facts. And is on tape specifically saying he wants to destroy the lives of those that do not agree with him. He was involved in the censorship of those that disagreed. The censorship of scientists and doctors that had a different opinion. Advocated people lose their job if they disagreed with him.
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Post by bluepenquin on Jun 4, 2024 11:55:56 GMT -5
He destroyed lives in the scientific community. He lied to the American people on multiple occasions. And he had a personal interest and investment in the Lab in China and diverted all discussion and research away from the Lab leak hypothesis. That said - 'despicable' is over the top. I mean there are truly many people that are despicable. But, I consider COVID to have been a major event in my lifetime and his role in this from start to finish ended up being destructive. He was ill equipped to making policy during COVID - which he effectively was given the reigns to do this. For this, I blame Trump and then Biden for ceding this authority to him. From a policy standpoint - this is the biggest mark against Trump for me and one that I never understood all those in the MAGA movement that doesn't like Fauci, were so willing to give Trump a pass on this. You are talking like the lab leak origin is a "done deal". I see no indication of that. Earlier research showed that the initial breakout was associated with the market place, not the lab. This is because Fauci effectively was able to censor any dissent on research for a lab leak - and natural origins was considered a fact. This was in no way scientific - it was actually anti-science.
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Post by aardvark on Jun 4, 2024 11:56:42 GMT -5
links?
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Post by aardvark on Jun 4, 2024 12:02:18 GMT -5
You are talking like the lab leak origin is a "done deal". I see no indication of that. Earlier research showed that the initial breakout was associated with the market place, not the lab. This is because Fauci effectively was able to censor any dissent on research for a lab leak - and natural origins was considered a fact. This was in no way scientific - it was actually anti-science. The earlier research, conducted by a scientist (Worobey) is still considered the go-to source. It is not conclusive, but shows the initial breakout was most likely at the Huanan Market.
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Post by n00b on Jun 4, 2024 12:13:55 GMT -5
(and personally I think it is nowhere near that high of a chance, simply because zoonotic origin passes the Occam's Razor test much more easily) So you think it was a coincidence that the Wuhan Institute of Virology, which was studying if a bat coronavirus could be made to infect a human cell line, was right down the road. I think reasonable people could implement Occam's Razor and come to a different conclusion.
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Post by aardvark on Jun 4, 2024 12:22:52 GMT -5
(and personally I think it is nowhere near that high of a chance, simply because zoonotic origin passes the Occam's Razor test much more easily) So you think it was a coincidence that the Wuhan Institute of Virology, which was studying if a bat coronavirus could be made to infect a human cell line, was right down the road. I think reasonable people could implement Occam's Razor and come to a different conclusion. The proximity of the lab makes it a plausible possibility. But the plotting of the early cases links to the market, not the lab. That data is still valid today.
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