bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Jul 17, 2020 13:37:30 GMT -5
Speaking of totalitarianism, what's your opinion of the DHS anyway? A huge federal agency full of "federal agents" with all sorts of ill-defined powers that are under the authority of one person. It's only existed for less than 20 years, but now it's sending unmarked SUVs to grab people off the street? Don't you think maybe that's a little more of a potential problem than "school choice"? There was a Lot of bad legislation that came out of 9/11 that I didn't support at the time and continue to not support. The country sacrificed some freedom for the feeling of better security. The Patriot Act was horrible. I stand with Freedom.
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Jul 17, 2020 13:39:52 GMT -5
but if there is widespread destruction of property, I'm never going to be convinced that letting it happen is the right answer. Correct.
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Post by mikegarrison on Jul 17, 2020 13:47:13 GMT -5
So now black neighborhoods are underpoliced. No, black neighborhoods have been underpoliced forever. This is not a contradiction. The traditional role of the police has been "to protect and serve" ... the privileged. Wealthy neighborhoods get "policed" very differently than poor neighborhoods. White neighborhoods get policed differently than black neighborhoods. Etc. It is possible to be hostile to the police *because* your neighborhood is "underpoliced". When the only interaction people in your neighborhood have with the police is that they show up, beat up your neighbors, and haul them away to prison -- that's not policing. That's an army of occupation. Most black people would love to be able to call the police for help just like white people can, but too often any interaction with the police goes badly for them. Remember Atatiana Jefferson? www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50032290 Her neighbor noticed that her front door was open late at night, and decided to call the police to check it out. The cops showed up, saw someone moving around inside the house and shot through the window. It was Atatiana, walking around in her own house, killed for the crime of leaving her front door open.
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Post by Hawk Attack on Jul 17, 2020 13:48:37 GMT -5
I see two guys dressed in $5 camo gear who reside in their parents’ basement living out their police-state wet dream with mommy’s SUV.
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Post by n00b on Jul 17, 2020 13:50:09 GMT -5
So now black neighborhoods are underpoliced. No, black neighborhoods have been underpoliced forever. This is not a contradiction. The traditional role of the police has been "to protect and serve" ... the privileged. Wealthy neighborhoods get "policed" very differently than poor neighborhoods. White neighborhoods get policed differently than black neighborhoods. Etc. It is possible to be hostile to the police *because* your neighborhood is "underpoliced". When the only interaction people in your neighborhood have with the police is that they show up, beat up your neighbors, and haul them away to prison -- that's not policing. That's an army of occupation. Most black people would love to be able to call the police for help just like white people can, but too often any interaction with the police goes badly for them. Remember Atatiana Jefferson? www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50032290 Her neighbor noticed that her front door was open late at night, and decided to call the police to check it out. The cops showed up, saw someone moving around inside the house and shot through the window. It was Atatiana, walking around in her own house, killed for the crime of leaving her front door open. I've just heard the 'black neighborhoods are overpoliced' argument a lot lately. And that's why it becomes confrontational, and that's why black people are arrested at higher rates. This story asserts the opposite.
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Post by mikegarrison on Jul 17, 2020 13:54:01 GMT -5
No, black neighborhoods have been underpoliced forever. This is not a contradiction. The traditional role of the police has been "to protect and serve" ... the privileged. Wealthy neighborhoods get "policed" very differently than poor neighborhoods. White neighborhoods get policed differently than black neighborhoods. Etc. It is possible to be hostile to the police *because* your neighborhood is "underpoliced". When the only interaction people in your neighborhood have with the police is that they show up, beat up your neighbors, and haul them away to prison -- that's not policing. That's an army of occupation. Most black people would love to be able to call the police for help just like white people can, but too often any interaction with the police goes badly for them. Remember Atatiana Jefferson? www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50032290 Her neighbor noticed that her front door was open late at night, and decided to call the police to check it out. The cops showed up, saw someone moving around inside the house and shot through the window. It was Atatiana, walking around in her own house, killed for the crime of leaving her front door open. I've just heard the 'black neighborhoods are overpoliced' argument a lot lately. And that's why it becomes confrontational, and that's why black people are arrested at higher rates. This story asserts the opposite. Two different meanings of the word "policed". Black people are over-investigated, over-arrested, over-convicted, over-imprisoned, and over-killed. They are under-protected and under-served.
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Post by mikegarrison on Jul 17, 2020 13:55:50 GMT -5
I see two guys dressed in $5 camo gear who reside in their parents’ basement living out their police-state wet dream with mommy’s SUV. But with the encouragement of the President of the United States.
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trojansc
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Post by trojansc on Jul 17, 2020 14:01:07 GMT -5
This story asserts the opposite. Did you watch the video? (I’m biased, it was put together by one of my good friends and fellow alum from SC)
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Post by n00b on Jul 17, 2020 14:22:30 GMT -5
This story asserts the opposite. Did you watch the video? (I’m biased, it was put together by one of my good friends and fellow alum from SC) I skimmed through it (with the sound off). I'm pretty familiar with Philadelphia so none of those images were new or surprising. It's just a terrible situation all around. Protests and riots were breaking out in all parts of the city. Police were constantly playing catch up to try to snuff out the riots while doing what they could to let the protesters be. But there simply weren't enough police in the city to do it in a way that we'd want to see. When you have an undermanned police presence and are trying to stop rioters who are throwing bricks at police and police cards, humans are going to get concerned for their own safety. That nervousness leads to some decisions that are probably regrettable in hindsight. Meanwhile, some of the protesters feel the same way about police so it's an extremely volatile situation. If you have an overwhleming police presence, you can prevent destruction and disperse relatively peacefully (DC was able to defend the White House). Or you can not send any cops and let the neighborhood burn (like Baltimore and Minneapolis have chosen to do). Philly and a lot of cities were in a tough spot where they clearly just didn't want to let a neighborhood burn but didn't have enough officers to protect the dozens of locations where rioting and looting were happening. If police hadn't shown up and the whole 52nd Street business district burned to the ground, would that have been a preferable result?
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trojansc
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Post by trojansc on Jul 17, 2020 14:30:52 GMT -5
If police hadn't shown up and the whole 52nd Street business district burned to the ground, would that have been a preferable result? I don’t necessarily disagree with the part of your post above this. What I think is that we can have a medium between what happened and what your proposed extreme alternative ls of having everything burned down. The police escalated the situation, but we’ll never know for sure what the alternative outcome would be. But by that footage and listening to the residents, I think the measures were completely extreme and traumatizing.
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Jul 17, 2020 14:48:08 GMT -5
I remember back in the 1976 AL Championship (Kansas City vs. New York) - Chris Chambliss hit a walk off HR in the deciding game 5. He was unable to round the bases as 60K fans rushed on the field. Then in the 1980 world series in Philadelphia game 6 (Philadelphia vs. Kansas City) - prior to the last out of the game, the Philadelphia police came out onto the field on mounted horses and dogs. Mounted horses surrounded the stadium in something that looked rather weird and out of this world. This really doesn't have anything to do with this - but this made me think about how things were in the late 1970's and early 1980's. Video of Chambliss's HR can be found easily. I have been trying to see pictures/video of the mounted horses at a baseball game (so I can check my memory from 40 years ago - here is a story told years later w/o pictures. www.inquirer.com/philly/sports/phillies/20100509_Inside_Baseball__Before_Tasers__Four-legged_deterrents.html
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Post by n00b on Jul 17, 2020 14:48:58 GMT -5
If police hadn't shown up and the whole 52nd Street business district burned to the ground, would that have been a preferable result? I don’t necessarily disagree with the part of your post above this. What I think is that we can have a medium between what happened and what your proposed extreme alternative ls of having everything burned down. The police escalated the situation, but we’ll never know for sure what the alternative outcome would be. But by that footage and listening to the residents, I think the measures were completely extreme and traumatizing. I totally agree. The police response could've absolutely been better. It's why I think 'Defund the Police' is wrong. I think they need more and better training and higher-quality individuals. Those things cost money.
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Post by mikegarrison on Jul 17, 2020 14:58:32 GMT -5
I don’t necessarily disagree with the part of your post above this. What I think is that we can have a medium between what happened and what your proposed extreme alternative ls of having everything burned down. The police escalated the situation, but we’ll never know for sure what the alternative outcome would be. But by that footage and listening to the residents, I think the measures were completely extreme and traumatizing. I totally agree. The police response could've absolutely been better. It's why I think 'Defund the Police' is wrong. I think they need more and better training and higher-quality individuals. Those things cost money. Throwing money at the problem without cultural buy-in from the police themselves is not going to work. Not in the least. In fact, it's pretty easy to argue that it is contributing to the problem.
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Post by holidayhusker on Jul 17, 2020 18:08:45 GMT -5
Sure - but then I know nothing about this new breaking news, context or validity. I am curious who ordered this - I am not sure Trump has much pull with the FBI. Trump has boasted about sending them there. I didn't say they were the FBI. In fact, I specifically talked about how DHS ha many more "federal agents" than any other agency. The FBI is actually part of the DOJ, not the DHS. What time was this? Why are the people arrested dressed in black riot gear? Don’t you find that a little odd? Depending on the time, if this is later than midnight, given the trouble that the city is sad, they should be arrested. But most of you will continue to cry and whine about the unfairness of it all, but if you want peace in your city, you have to restore some semblance of order
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2020 18:14:08 GMT -5
Trump has boasted about sending them there. I didn't say they were the FBI. In fact, I specifically talked about how DHS ha many more "federal agents" than any other agency. The FBI is actually part of the DOJ, not the DHS. What time was this? Why are the people arrested dressed in black riot gear? Don’t you find that a little odd? Depending on the time, if this is later than midnight, given the trouble that the city is sad, they should be arrested. But most of you will continue to cry and whine about the unfairness of it all, but if you want peace in your city, you have to restore some semblance of order
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