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Post by HOLIDAY on Nov 16, 2020 8:57:03 GMT -5
Our system excludes people. Certain people can obtain loans. Others can't. Or the price is much different. In a just world, Trump would have been shut off from banks long before he was. AND he wouldn't have been able to find new avenues for his scams. Loans for them. Bank loans are based on practical basic common sense. If you have collateral or really good credit, you can get a loan. Giving a loan the high-risk people only increases the difficulty of getting a loan for everyone.
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Post by maplespear on Nov 17, 2020 16:40:39 GMT -5
Dam ironhammer -- you have a crystal ball ?
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Post by mikegarrison on Nov 17, 2020 16:45:39 GMT -5
Dam ironhammer -- you have a crystal ball ? It didn't take a crystal ball to guess that the guy who declined to promise he would concede if he lost the 2016 primary, who was also the guy who declined to promise he would concede if he lost the 2016 election, and who was also the guy who declined to promise he would concede if he lost the 2020 election, would not in fact concede after he lost the 2020 election.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2020 16:46:14 GMT -5
For the record, I am not a socialist -- except for some things. I believe in markets. But they need to be regulated to prevent abuses. That's not what "socialist" means. ?? That's why I'm NOT a socialist (except for some things).
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Post by mikegarrison on Nov 17, 2020 16:48:04 GMT -5
That's not what "socialist" means. ?? That's why I'm NOT a socialist (except for some things). Socialism does not have much of anything to do with belief or non-belief in markets. There are non-market theories of socialism, but there are also market theories of socialism too.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2020 16:50:36 GMT -5
I still don't understand what you are telling me. I am not defining socialism. I am saying capitalism has its place.
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Post by mikegarrison on Nov 17, 2020 17:08:07 GMT -5
I still don't understand what you are telling me. I am not defining socialism. I am saying capitalism has its place. And I'm saying that socialism and capitalism are not incompatible. There are several forms of socialism that work within a capitalist, market framework. It has to do with who owns the capital. For instance, I am a member of several consumer co-ops. Although they operate in a market economy, they are collectively owned by the customers that shop at them. Similarly, my whole life I got my medical care from a non-profit HMO that was governed by its members (generally customers). (They eventually reorganized as part of Kaiser Permanente, which has a more complicated structure with linked non-profit foundations that offer the health plans and for-profit regional medical providers that are cooperatively owned by their employees.)
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Post by maplespear on Nov 17, 2020 17:08:14 GMT -5
Dam ironhammer -- you have a crystal ball ? It didn't take a crystal ball to guess that the guy who declined to promise he would concede if he lost the 2016 primary, who was also the guy who declined to promise he would concede if he lost the 2016 election, and who was also the guy who declined to promise he would concede if he lost the 2020 election, would not in fact concede after he lost the 2020 election. You never know with elections. Half the country voted for the orange man.
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Post by BearClause on Nov 17, 2020 17:58:38 GMT -5
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Post by n00b on Nov 17, 2020 18:01:02 GMT -5
I still don't understand what you are telling me. I am not defining socialism. I am saying capitalism has its place. And I'm saying that socialism and capitalism are not incompatible. There are several forms of socialism that work within a capitalist, market framework. It has to do with who owns the capital. For instance, I am a member of several consumer co-ops. Although they operate in a market economy, they are collectively owned by the customers that shop at them. Similarly, my whole life I got my medical care from a non-profit HMO that was governed by its members (generally customers). (They eventually reorganized as part of Kaiser Permanente, which has a more complicated structure with linked non-profit foundations that offer the health plans and for-profit regional medical providers that are cooperatively owned by their employees.) I think Ruffda was pretty clearly talking about the national system of Socialism, implemented by government, not how individual businesses are run.
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Post by mervinswerved on Nov 17, 2020 18:11:56 GMT -5
And I'm saying that socialism and capitalism are not incompatible. There are several forms of socialism that work within a capitalist, market framework. It has to do with who owns the capital. For instance, I am a member of several consumer co-ops. Although they operate in a market economy, they are collectively owned by the customers that shop at them. Similarly, my whole life I got my medical care from a non-profit HMO that was governed by its members (generally customers). (They eventually reorganized as part of Kaiser Permanente, which has a more complicated structure with linked non-profit foundations that offer the health plans and for-profit regional medical providers that are cooperatively owned by their employees.) I think Ruffda was pretty clearly talking about the national system of Socialism, implemented by government, not how individual businesses are run. And what Mike was saying (correctly) is that there is no one system labeled "socialism" and there are plenty of varieties of socialism which rely on markets. There are many which even rely on capital but democratize it through worker control or nationalization.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2020 19:01:45 GMT -5
It didn't take a crystal ball to guess that the guy who declined to promise he would concede if he lost the 2016 primary, who was also the guy who declined to promise he would concede if he lost the 2016 election, and who was also the guy who declined to promise he would concede if he lost the 2020 election, would not in fact concede after he lost the 2020 election. You never know with elections. Half the country voted for the orange man.
To be fair, half the VOTERS voted for Trump, about 73,000,000 voters voted for Trump. There are about 328,000,000 people in the U.S.
And not to nitpick, but orange toddler might be more precise.
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Post by HOLIDAY on Nov 17, 2020 20:19:19 GMT -5
It didn't take a crystal ball to guess that the guy who declined to promise he would concede if he lost the 2016 primary, who was also the guy who declined to promise he would concede if he lost the 2016 election, and who was also the guy who declined to promise he would concede if he lost the 2020 election, would not in fact concede after he lost the 2020 election. You never know with elections. Half the country voted for the orange man. . 70 million of them, many of them women. And they weren’t even wearing vagina hats. Imagine that. Women with common sense.
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