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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2020 12:54:18 GMT -5
Our system excludes people. Certain people can obtain loans. Others can't. Or the price is much different.
In a just world, Trump would have been shut off from banks long before he was. AND he wouldn't have been able to find new avenues for his scams. Loans for them.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2020 12:56:01 GMT -5
Sure, everything in a capitalist system favors capital. It's how it works. I don't see how it's rigged if it's operating as designed. How it's "designed" is the key there. Capitalism doesn't exist without an underlying structure.
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Post by mervinswerved on Nov 15, 2020 13:33:43 GMT -5
Sure, everything in a capitalist system favors capital. It's how it works. I don't see how it's rigged if it's operating as designed. How it's "designed" is the key there. Capitalism doesn't exist without an underlying structure. Capitalism *is* the underlying structure.
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Post by volleylearner on Nov 15, 2020 15:25:29 GMT -5
Our system excludes people. Certain people can obtain loans. Others can't. Or the price is much different. In a just world, Trump would have been shut off from banks long before he was. AND he wouldn't have been able to find new avenues for his scams. Loans for them. You can certainly disagree with loan decisions but it would be hard to enforce a "no stupid loans" law. Of course we try to prevent certain kinds of discrimination, but that isn't what happened with Trump. Markets often don't work in practice the people think they should. Like a loss leader in a grocery store, a bank might make a "bad" loan decision in the belief that they will get some advantage in the future but not as a direct result of the loan. I'm not saying that is what happened with Trump, but it could have been something like that (or it could have been money laundering). The opposite can happen as well, where a bank refuses a loan even though they would profit from it because they see a downside in the future.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2020 20:33:30 GMT -5
How it's "designed" is the key there. Capitalism doesn't exist without an underlying structure. Capitalism *is* the underlying structure. No it's not. "Capitalism" doesn't even begin to work without a government and economic system to support it. Money, for starters.
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Post by donut on Nov 15, 2020 20:47:15 GMT -5
Capitalism *is* the underlying structure. No it's not. "Capitalism" doesn't even begin to work without a government and economic system to support it. Money, for starters. I think you're conflating several topics. It sounds like you're talking about free-market capitalism. Nothing in the definition of capitalism says "capitalism can't be regulated by a government" (i.e. the "rigging" I suppose you are talking about). Whereas there are many systems that favor the rich, there are also protections of the not rich (i.e. antitrust laws). I'm saying all of this as someone who largely identifies as a socialist. IMO, free-market capitalism fails if you value equality and fairness. If those are important to you, free-market capitalism only works if you assume that it is in the rich's interests to provide for the poor. I think that's largely patently false in the United States (hence why we need things like minimum wage laws).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2020 21:11:12 GMT -5
No. Capitalism needs to be regulated. You can call that rigging if the regulations mostly benefit the people who already have wealth. That was my point. OUR economic system, which we call capitalism or free markets, is rigged.
I don't disagree with mervin that Capitalism is rigged inherently. I do disagree with him that Capitalism exists without an economic structure to support it. This includes a government and regulations. You can't just find it in nature, fercryingoutloud. It's an economic theory.
Our regulations are rigged. The game is rigged. Donald Trump's "success" is proof.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2020 21:13:16 GMT -5
For the record, I am not a socialist -- except for some things. I believe in markets. But they need to be regulated to prevent abuses.
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Post by mervinswerved on Nov 15, 2020 21:24:11 GMT -5
Capitalism *is* the underlying structure. No it's not. "Capitalism" doesn't even begin to work without a government and economic system to support it. Money, for starters. Capitalism has a much greater role in shaping government and our society than they play in shaping capitalism.
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Post by mervinswerved on Nov 15, 2020 21:26:11 GMT -5
Socialism and markets are not mutually exclusive phenomenon.
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Post by donut on Nov 15, 2020 21:31:34 GMT -5
No. Capitalism needs to be regulated. You can call that rigging if the regulations mostly benefit the people who already have wealth. That was my point. OUR economic system, which we call capitalism or free markets, is rigged. I don't disagree with mervin that Capitalism is rigged inherently. I do disagree with him that Capitalism exists without an economic structure to support it. This includes a government and regulations. You can't just find it in nature, fercryingoutloud. It's an economic theory. Our regulations are rigged. The game is rigged. Donald Trump's "success" is proof. I'm not entirely sure what your point is. Yes, regulation largely favors the rich here in the United States. But there is also regulation that protects the poor. If "regulation largely favoring the rich" = "rigged," sure I'll play along with that definition. 5 people live in a village. 1 person has a cow. That person trades with everyone for the cow's milk -- one villager provides wheat, one provides water, etc. All of a sudden, the villager with the cow realizes that the milk is the most desirable of the items being traded. So the villager asks for double of everything in exchange for the same quantity of milk. Isn't that capitalism at its core?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2020 21:56:21 GMT -5
The regulations protecting the poor are 1) piss poor, 2) being dismantled and 3) piss poor. And it's not just the poor. It's everyone who was not born into wealth. It's also the middle class.
Maybe. But it doesn't work if the other villagers just kill the guy with the cow and now have their own source of milk.
I don't disagree with mervin that capitalism shapes government (if that's the desire). I'm just saying our government doesn't have to be a slave to capitalism -- or, more to the point, the wealthy.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2020 21:58:00 GMT -5
That's what I like to hear, btw. "I'm not entirely sure what your point is." Communication skills fail me again.
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Post by mikegarrison on Nov 16, 2020 3:09:31 GMT -5
For the record, I am not a socialist -- except for some things. I believe in markets. But they need to be regulated to prevent abuses. That's not what "socialist" means.
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Post by mikegarrison on Nov 16, 2020 3:13:58 GMT -5
No. Capitalism needs to be regulated. You can call that rigging if the regulations mostly benefit the people who already have wealth. That was my point. OUR economic system, which we call capitalism or free markets, is rigged. I don't disagree with mervin that Capitalism is rigged inherently. I do disagree with him that Capitalism exists without an economic structure to support it. This includes a government and regulations. You can't just find it in nature, fercryingoutloud. It's an economic theory. Our regulations are rigged. The game is rigged. Donald Trump's "success" is proof. I'm not entirely sure what your point is. Yes, regulation largely favors the rich here in the United States. But there is also regulation that protects the poor. If "regulation largely favoring the rich" = "rigged," sure I'll play along with that definition. 5 people live in a village. 1 person has a cow. That person trades with everyone for the cow's milk -- one villager provides wheat, one provides water, etc. All of a sudden, the villager with the cow realizes that the milk is the most desirable of the items being traded. So the villager asks for double of everything in exchange for the same quantity of milk. Isn't that capitalism at its core? Capitalism at its core is that the village has no milk, so one villager scrapes together all her money and buys a cow (invests capital), then sells the milk to make back the capital and turn a profit. Market capitalism is when another villager does the same thing, and now they compete on milk prices.
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