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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2021 11:01:50 GMT -5
Pro Golfers teach lessons and are great golfers but probably wouldn't make the cut in a major tournament: Professional Golfers . . . QED because they have less skills than the people that play in those tournaments...
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Post by graham on Jan 23, 2021 12:41:38 GMT -5
Just my two cents, I think of the term "professional" as describing someone's line of work - how they make money. Although I do agree that it implies a certain skill level, I've met plenty of professionals in "real life" careers who were not very good at what they do. But they are still professionals. So having said that I have two other points:
1. This may seem like semantics on the surface, but in the world of golf there is actually a difference between the terms Professional Golfer and Golf Professional. A Professional Golfer is someone who earns a living playing the game. A Golf Professional is someone who earns a living teaching, instructing, or otherwise working in the field of golf (this would be the local pro at the club). Someone could certainly be both at the same time, but there is a difference. So if we are using the world of golf as a reference, we should make the same distinctions in our arguments relating to beach volleyball.
2. Regarding skill set, I don't think it can be used as a determining factor for professional status. Look at the Olympics, it is full of amateur athletes who are the best in the world at what they do. Second, if Phil quits playing tomorrow and never touches a ball again is he still a pro? His skill set hasn't changed. At that point I wouldn't consider him a pro, definitely an ex-pro, but not one currently. The ability to earn a living PLAYING the game has to be the determining factor, and if the economics of the situation don't allow for true "professionals" then so be it (again look at the Olympics).
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Post by volleyballjim on Jan 23, 2021 14:12:49 GMT -5
Pro Golfers teach lessons and are great golfers but probably wouldn't make the cut in a major tournament: Professional Golfers . . . QED because they have less skills than the people that play in those tournaments... Which people, the ones that play in the higher tour events? There are multi-tiered tournament tours ALL of which are professionals . . .
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Post by volleyballjim on Jan 23, 2021 14:15:13 GMT -5
Just my two cents, I think of the term "professional" as describing someone's line of work - how they make money. Although I do agree that it implies a certain skill level, I've met plenty of professionals in "real life" careers who were not very good at what they do. But they are still professionals. So having said that I have two other points: 1. This may seem like semantics on the surface, but in the world of golf there is actually a difference between the terms Professional Golfer and Golf Professional. A Professional Golfer is someone who earns a living playing the game. A Golf Professional is someone who earns a living teaching, instructing, or otherwise working in the field of golf (this would be the local pro at the club). Someone could certainly be both at the same time, but there is a difference. So if we are using the world of golf as a reference, we should make the same distinctions in our arguments relating to beach volleyball. 2. Regarding skill set, I don't think it can be used as a determining factor for professional status. Look at the Olympics, it is full of amateur athletes who are the best in the world at what they do. Second, if Phil quits playing tomorrow and never touches a ball again is he still a pro? His skill set hasn't changed. At that point I wouldn't consider him a pro, definitely an ex-pro, but not one currently. The ability to earn a living PLAYING the game has to be the determining factor, and if the economics of the situation don't allow for true "professionals" then so be it (again look at the Olympics). Pretty astute summary; Do you mind if I defer all future comments to you? LOL . . . Oh, I REALLY feel bad for players who "don't want to use the word pro", when, to me, they in fact are "our pros" . . . (PS. Great point of breaking down Pro golfer v. Golf professional; if we were on a debating team and you pulled that on me, I KNOW I would start sweating trying to defend the other....hahahahah). Appreciate the knowledgable critique!
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Post by wilbur on Jan 23, 2021 20:57:09 GMT -5
Graham nailed it. He and many others are more stringent about how much but generally I am on same page. If someone is making 5-10k a year playing thru prize money, sponsors or contracts, they have my respect. The guys that made way less but labeled themselves pro VB players to anyone who would listen always made me cringe on the inside. Most haven't made 10k prize money in decades long careers.
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Post by southbay11 on Jan 24, 2021 0:46:06 GMT -5
You always confuse the crap out of me. Group: pro is someone who makes their living at the sport without another gig You: so definition of pro isn’t tied to skill set? Me: the ones with the best skill sets are the ones that make money and therefore are pros You: so why isn’t the guy with lesser skills a pro? You can have "skills" and not win ($$$) . . . there’s a lot to unpack here...LOL Skills and not win? Skills compared to whom, the recreational player? The semi pro player? This is my pet peeve. Everyone’s a professional.... A professional is someone that makes a living at whatever endeavor or sport it is. Okay, so this sport doesn’t pay well. Let’s go with your view. You have “tiers” of players. In my book; the top tier are professionals. They are on the AVP Tour and FIVB tours, have coaches, pay their bills, sponsorships, etc. The next tier is semi pro. No coaches, maybe make a main draw, maybe win a few games and then Monday they go to their profession and make money. The AVP Qualifiers trying to learn skills are hobbyists until they can move to the next tier. Most players don’t even practice full time. Most don’t even practice what I consider “part time”. They take months on end off and call themselves....a “professional” What professionals do that? Is the college star that can’t make an AVP Draw a professional? Nope. This sport has hundreds of “hobbyists” and semi pros that have jobs other than the sport that pays their bills. There is money in this sport but it seems these kids have no guidance how to market themselves and present themselves to create value. They cheapen themselves for free product here or there and devalue themselves instead of creating value or image a company or corporation can partner with. If you have a million people a week looking at you; you have value. You have to know how to partner and use the value you have. This is a business. If you treat it as such and create value and have solid skills you can get paid, build a team and be a professional. But, this is all just the way I see it. You see it how you see it...
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Post by volleyballjim on Jan 24, 2021 2:56:39 GMT -5
SO, lets "pick your professionals", as you might want to call it:
Lev Prima and/or Jeff Samuels Mark Burik and/or Dave Palm Chris Honer and/or Travi Merwhirter Adam Roberts and/or Skylar del Sol
.... and GO:
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Post by guest2 on Jan 24, 2021 3:32:51 GMT -5
SO, lets "pick your professionals", as you might want to call it: Lev Prima and/or Jeff Samuels Mark Burik and/or Dave Palm Chris Honer and/or Travi Merwhirter Adam Roberts and/or Skylar del Sol .... and GO: Lots of good guys and solid players on that list but no professionals as far as I can see.
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Post by southbay11 on Jan 24, 2021 7:34:16 GMT -5
SO, lets "pick your professionals", as you might want to call it: Lev Prima and/or Jeff Samuels Mark Burik and/or Dave Palm Chris Honer and/or Travi Merwhirter Adam Roberts and/or Skylar del Sol .... and GO: Lots of good guys and solid players on that list but no professionals as far as I can see. Agreed. Mark is a professional coach. How he makes his living while trying to be a pro player. Good player. A tier below professional. All of them. Trav is my buddy. He’s trying to get there. He’s a professional writer. And, so on...different levels of skill amongst those guys but all trying to be professionals that have other professions
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Post by Winbabywin on Jan 25, 2021 10:22:38 GMT -5
If we are having a conversation and I ask what you do, if you say "I'm a professional beach volleyball player" and that's where it ends, then you're a pro. If it's followed by, "...but I wait tables most of the time", you are not a pro.
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Post by volleyballjim on Jan 25, 2021 12:51:17 GMT -5
If we are having a conversation and I ask what you do, if you say "I'm a professional beach volleyball player" and that's where it ends, then you're a pro. If it's followed by, "...but I wait tables most of the time", you are not a pro. hahahahaha....GOOD one! BUT, if Miller LITE comes in and infuses $1,500,000 in prize money (same schedule), that "said waiter" now have the all-elusive title of "beach professional" . . . hahahahaha . . . "Hey, can we get some water at this table? Where did our waiter go?" . . .
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Post by southbay11 on Jan 25, 2021 13:10:54 GMT -5
If we are having a conversation and I ask what you do, if you say "I'm a professional beach volleyball player" and that's where it ends, then you're a pro. If it's followed by, "...but I wait tables most of the time", you are not a pro. Hahahaha! 👊🏻😂
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Post by rainmaker on Jan 25, 2021 13:56:21 GMT -5
winbabywin spot on!
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