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Post by mikegarrison on Jun 16, 2021 13:29:31 GMT -5
I don't like these US Institutions/policies. I believe they are racist. Anyone that agrees with said policies must be racist. This is the typical argument I hear all the time - and I am the one that doesn't want to have an honest discussion on racism? LOL I was convinced you were just arguing dishonestly, but to see you sum up the conversations this way just shows you have severe cognitive biases that prevent you from engaging on any of these topics appropriately. Keep on blaming the teachers' unions! Yeah, he's starting from the assumption that this is all just because "we don't like these policies, and so we'll declare them to be racist". Actually, it's more like "we've been educated to understand how these policies are racist, and that's why we don't like them".
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Post by c4ndlelight on Jun 16, 2021 13:37:35 GMT -5
LOL I was convinced you were just arguing dishonestly, but to see you sum up the conversations this way just shows you have severe cognitive biases that prevent you from engaging on any of these topics appropriately. Keep on blaming the teachers' unions! Yeah, he's starting from the assumption that this is all just because "we don't like these policies, and so we'll declare them to be racist". Actually, it's more like "we've been educated to understand how these policies are racist, and that's why we don't like them". And also the starting assumption: "I don't feel like I'm racist, so nothing I support could possibly be racist."
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trojansc
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Post by trojansc on Jun 16, 2021 13:43:37 GMT -5
I have consistently stated that to say ALL white people have benefited from some privileged by being white and all black people have been disadvantaged is incorrect. And then to take this further by saying ALL white people are oppressors and all black people are oppressed is also a flawed theory. You have consistently said we should not acknowledge white privilege. Period. I've said this to you before - and you have not acknowledged it. What part don't you get about white privilege is NOT an 'All or nothing' issue. What's the issue? White privilege again, as an example, means you are less likely to have the police called on you for swimming, BBQing, selling water, mowing your grass, going to a Starbucks, delivering food for postmates etc. etc. These are not random examples. These are actual events that happen. It does NOT mean that a white person will have every single blanket advantage over every single other person in every single situation. The fact that you try to frame it as that is a dishonest attempt in my opinion to discredit the idea because you, for whatever reason, have an issue with acknowledging it. It also means you are less likely to be a victim of police brutality and less likely to be racially profiled. If you actually care about the racial issues you say you do, then you would acknowledge this is a part of it. What my hunch is the real issue here is that when YOU hear the words white privilege - you are instantly defensive towards it. You think that in this day and age, it's asinine to assume that 'every' white person is an oppressor. First, that's not what's even being said. It's the fact that we are all a part of a system that disadvantages minorities and in more situations than not - defaults to white people. I also have a hunch you can't swallow white privilege because it may create some 'moral' issue within yourself. You can't come to terms to accept the fact that you too, whether you realize or not, have benefitted from this system. You are really kidding yourself if you think those racist beliefs have virtually no power in this country. They are not as overtly expressed anymore, but well, sometimes behind closed doors they actually still are. Especially when there are no 'others' around. 'Abandon the goal of a color blind society'. Have you even attempted to understand the opposing arguments about a colorblind society? They've been expressed to you here, but there's plenty of stuff you can read outside of here as well. Your opinions re: assimilation, in my mind, are almost symbolic of white privilege and the system we have. We already went through how you bring up how Italians and other immigrants assimilated and how we should model that but ignore how different it is when entire peoples are enslaved. Have you evolved at all to understand that? Do you see how your ideas, even if they may sound ideal in your mind, are just not realistic for our society?
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trojansc
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Post by trojansc on Jun 16, 2021 13:53:30 GMT -5
LOL I was convinced you were just arguing dishonestly, but to see you sum up the conversations this way just shows you have severe cognitive biases that prevent you from engaging on any of these topics appropriately. Keep on blaming the teachers' unions! Yeah, he's starting from the assumption that this is all just because "we don't like these policies, and so we'll declare them to be racist". Actually, it's more like "we've been educated to understand how these policies are racist, and that's why we don't like them". This is why I have a hard time with him. He does not seem to be coming from a realistic or fair point of view when discussing these issues, as exemplified here: But then, Texas could try and ban calculus in HS in an effort to curb 'racism' (ala California). First off, as explained, that post is factually inaccurate. California was never trying to BAN calculus from being taught in schools. It's not even an honest attempt to understand what the issue actually is. He uses this example in an effort to try to demean actual potential solutions to racial gaps and paint them as something ludicrous. This is why we see right-wing news, exemplified by posters like boof and holiday, to say 'liberals say MATH is racist'. He seems to regurgitate things that I just would expect better of him, for whatever reason, but I clearly need to reconsider my opinion. So yeah, this is the point when people say there's not an honest attempt here.
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Post by mikegarrison on Jun 16, 2021 13:59:41 GMT -5
White privilege again, as an example, means you are less likely to have the police called on you for swimming, BBQing, selling water, mowing your grass, going to a Starbucks, delivering food for postmates etc. etc. These are not random examples. These are actual events that happen. abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/video-shows-man-apologized-honolulu-police-shot-78298312A black man apparently mistook an address, apologized for it, and went back to his car. Police showed up and killed him. Then they claimed he had attacked them and resisted their orders, but oops for them, doorbell camera shows they were lying. At least one officer shouted, "shoot him!". They only announced that they were the police after they had shot him.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2021 14:04:07 GMT -5
Always fun to engage in a dishonest debate. How about you let me argue my point and you argue yours? What was your point? I think I made my point. You changed it to "it was *solely* racism." Emphasis mine.
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Post by mervinswerved on Jun 16, 2021 14:16:12 GMT -5
I think I made my point. You changed it to "it was *solely* racism." Emphasis mine. Well, I said racism was partly to blame and you said it wasn't a good take, so I suppose I had to take a guess.
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Post by mikegarrison on Jun 16, 2021 14:21:00 GMT -5
One woman (a tourist) becomes apparently irrationally panicked, calls police, and continues to sob on the call to 9-1-1 that he's still there. The man with her is visibly and audibly confused as to why she is so upset, because they guy did nothing except apologize for being at the wrong address.
Police run up to him shouting for him to get down on the ground, then they tase him and start to beat him, then they shoot him, and only then, after that, do they call out that they are police.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2021 14:21:31 GMT -5
I think I made my point. You changed it to "it was *solely* racism." Emphasis mine. Well, I said racism was partly to blame and you said it wasn't a good take, so I suppose I had to take a guess. That's PART of what you said. You're doing it again.
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Post by AmeriCanvbdad on Jun 16, 2021 14:29:01 GMT -5
White privilege again, as an example, means you are less likely to have the police called on you for swimming, BBQing, selling water, mowing your grass, going to a Starbucks, delivering food for postmates etc. etc. These are not random examples. These are actual events that happen. abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/video-shows-man-apologized-honolulu-police-shot-78298312A black man apparently mistook an address, apologized for it, and went back to his car. Police showed up and killed him. Then they claimed he had attacked them and resisted their orders, but oops for them, doorbell camera shows they were lying. At least one officer shouted, "shoot him!". They only announced that they were the police after they had shot him. Two Questions: Did you watch the footage of the incident? Do you think the outcome was racially influenced? The first question got answered as I was typing.
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Post by mervinswerved on Jun 16, 2021 14:31:09 GMT -5
Well, I said racism was partly to blame and you said it wasn't a good take, so I suppose I had to take a guess. That's PART of what you said. You're doing it again. Surprised you'd take exception at the rest of my post. I think it's pretty clear from the number of Obama-Trump voters there was significant dissatisfaction with his presidency.
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Post by n00b on Jun 16, 2021 14:37:04 GMT -5
White privilege again, as an example, means you are less likely to have the police called on you for swimming, BBQing, selling water, mowing your grass, going to a Starbucks, delivering food for postmates etc. etc. These are not random examples. These are actual events that happen. abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/video-shows-man-apologized-honolulu-police-shot-78298312A black man apparently mistook an address, apologized for it, and went back to his car. Police showed up and killed him. Then they claimed he had attacked them and resisted their orders, but oops for them, doorbell camera shows they were lying. At least one officer shouted, "shoot him!". They only announced that they were the police after they had shot him. Have you watched the video? It’s dark, but I think it’s pretty obvious he attacked the officer. You’re right, they didn’t announce themselves as police, but he just walked into the wrong house and heard a woman frantically calling 9-1-1. Assuming it is a non-officer pointing a flash light and taser at you, telling you to get on the ground seems like a stretch.
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Post by n00b on Jun 16, 2021 14:38:08 GMT -5
One woman (a tourist) becomes apparently irrationally panicked, calls police, and continues to sob on the call to 9-1-1 that he's still there. The man with her is visibly and audibly confused as to why she is so upset, because they guy did nothing except apologize for being at the wrong address. Police run up to him shouting for him to get down on the ground, then they tase him and start to beat him, then they shoot him, and only then, after that, do they call out that they are police. Irrationally panicked?! How often have you had a stranger trail you into your rental property? And what? At 5:26, the guy is clearly walking TOWARDS the officer with the body cam. How do you interpret that as the officer being the aggressor?
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Post by donut on Jun 16, 2021 14:38:18 GMT -5
Right on cue.
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Jun 16, 2021 14:39:06 GMT -5
I have consistently stated that to say ALL white people have benefited from some privileged by being white and all black people have been disadvantaged is incorrect. And then to take this further by saying ALL white people are oppressors and all black people are oppressed is also a flawed theory. You have consistently said we should not acknowledge white privilege. Period. I've said this to you before - and you have not acknowledged it. What part don't you get about white privilege is NOT an 'All or nothing' issue. What's the issue? White privilege again, as an example, means you are less likely to have the police called on you for swimming, BBQing, selling water, mowing your grass, going to a Starbucks, delivering food for postmates etc. etc. These are not random examples. These are actual events that happen. It does NOT mean that a white person will have every single blanket advantage over every single other person in every single situation. The fact that you try to frame it as that is a dishonest attempt in my opinion to discredit the idea because you, for whatever reason, have an issue with acknowledging it. It also means you are less likely to be a victim of police brutality and less likely to be racially profiled. If you actually care about the racial issues you say you do, then you would acknowledge this is a part of it. I have continually agreed that any racism with the police should never be accepted and we should be doing everything to get rid of this. Equal protection under the law is most important. Yet, you and others continue to cite racism in the police force as your examples of racism in today's society. This has zero to do with Capitalism. This has nothing to do with school admission standards. This has little to do with CRT as being taught in elementary schools.
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