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Post by volleydadtx on Jul 12, 2021 20:15:57 GMT -5
UPDATE:
Just got back from the gym. I kept the machine at the same release point, got on a box on the other side of the net, and measured the speed as the ball left the machine (risking my head). Balls coming out @ 41/42 mph end up being 34-35 mph on the other end of the court. So whoever said the ball is losing 1 mph per 7 feet pretty much nailed it. I know all of the balls were coming out at 41/42 because that's what the machine was set at and I calibrated it and measured the speed as they shot out. I then went down to the end of the court and measured them incoming.
So when someone says "well they serve 40 mph on XYZ team", there are some qualifications to that. And the study of the women's pro league in Europe that put the average float @ sub 30 mph is probably pretty darn accurate. You have to aggressively serve to hit a passer at 34-35 mph with a float, and you're going to have a high error rate blasting it that hard.
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Post by silverchloride on Jul 12, 2021 20:19:01 GMT -5
This is mildly interesting. A video from pocket radar that shows a team (college? Club? Shirts say GB and they are at the Marquette gym) serving repeatedly, with a decent percentage above 40 and reaching as high as 43 (during the time I watched). Hard to tell most of the time the quality of the dead float and whether the balls were in That is my DDs exact range of speeds for serving a Jump Float, results would support the data presented in this video =) |
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Post by sevb on Jul 12, 2021 20:32:18 GMT -5
Just make sure when your daughter and your friends daughter get to college… and their coach puts a speed on their team serving goals… that the SAs have this VT thread to point to as proof their coach is either right or wrong… coaches love that stuff
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Post by volleydadtx on Jul 12, 2021 22:45:46 GMT -5
This is mildly interesting. A video from pocket radar that shows a team (college? Club? Shirts say GB and they are at the Marquette gym) serving repeatedly, with a decent percentage above 40 and reaching as high as 43 (during the time I watched). Hard to tell most of the time the quality of the dead float and whether the balls were in That is my DDs exact range of speeds for serving a Jump Float, results would support the data presented in this video =) While you technically may be right, your DD’s coaches aren’t likely measuring the ball at contact. That is an arduous task, ask me how I know. The effective MPH is what the serve is when it reaches the passer, and that’s the way serve velocity is measured. |
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Post by dodger on Jul 12, 2021 22:54:28 GMT -5
Measuring the speed of the ball at the time of release is not a simple matter. The equipment needed to measure this is difficult to set up and calibrate unless you know a mechanical engineer or expert in the equipment that is looking for a project. I can't think of a way for a layman to do it accurately, and I question the need to have that number for any reason other than curiosity. For training purposes I would think that finding a maximum speed setting in whatever scale the machine provides, then introduce variation in speed, spin and direction as necessary to make the training meaningful would give the best results.
I think it might not be that hard : dunhill speed gun : stand direct line with ball path press hold trigger: ball is thrown (served) : after attempt let up on trigger and LCD will show highest speed recorded: and since highest speed is at release it would seem that the release speed would be anticipated in yhis instance. In baseball they use term “fast gun” and slow gun”: fsst guns measure speed at release, and slow guns x feet after: there is even a device measures ball at arrival at catchers mit! It would seem speed just after contact is very possible! |
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Post by silverchloride on Jul 12, 2021 23:10:24 GMT -5
That is my DDs exact range of speeds for serving a Jump Float, results would support the data presented in this video =) While you technically may be right, your DD’s coaches aren’t likely measuring the ball at contact. That is an arduous task, ask me how I know. The effective MPH is what the serve is when it reaches the passer, and that’s the way serve velocity is measured. Fair enough, I am not a coach, so I only have the info that I have seen in the gym. I do not know where in the flight the ball speed is measured. I would agree that the speed when it drops across court is likely slower for the Float than the read on the screen. In the video, I think the coach said the range was like 25-35 mph at the receiving end. Next time they run the drills, I will pay closer attention. Knowledge is power and all =) |
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Post by silverchloride on Jul 12, 2021 23:11:34 GMT -5
I have learned a lot with the information that has been posted. Thank you.
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Post by vergyltantor on Jul 12, 2021 23:14:50 GMT -5
Measuring the speed of the ball at the time of release is not a simple matter. The equipment needed to measure this is difficult to set up and calibrate unless you know a mechanical engineer or expert in the equipment that is looking for a project. I can't think of a way for a layman to do it accurately, and I question the need to have that number for any reason other than curiosity. For training purposes I would think that finding a maximum speed setting in whatever scale the machine provides, then introduce variation in speed, spin and direction as necessary to make the training meaningful would give the best results.
I think it might not be that hard : dunhill speed gun : stand direct line with ball path press hold trigger: ball is thrown (served) : after attempt let up on trigger and LCD will show highest speed recorded: and since highest speed is at release it would seem that the release speed would be anticipated in yhis instance. In baseball they use term “fast gun” and slow gun”: fsst guns measure speed at release, and slow guns x feet after: there is even a device measures ball at arrival at catchers mit! It would seem speed just after contact is very possible! You are probably right, the methods I was thinking of would produce a more accurate result than needed. A radar gun should be more adequate for this. |
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Post by joetrinsey on Jul 13, 2021 7:08:05 GMT -5
I have personally held radar guns for 100s, probably 1000s at this point, of 40mph+ float serves from high schoolers through Olympians. I'm talking measuring off the hand here. (And as dodger noticed, most guns that I'm familiar with, you hold the trigger and when you release it shows you the highest speed during that interval, which is going to be off contact.)
I think measuring at reception point is a bit of an odd way to do. It's easiest just to measure it off hand contact.
And as others have noted, this is why a little bit of spin kills your ability to serve effectively. A little bit of spin on the ball and you'll struggle to keep 36mph in the court.
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Post by SayonaraTachikara on Jul 13, 2021 8:42:43 GMT -5
I have learned a lot here. I am also interested in the science of "at what speed does the ball get the most movement?" Since we are talking about jump floats, a fast jump float is easier to pass (IMO) than a filthy one that drops off the table at a slower MPH. I would think there is a ton more science that would need to included in this study. Which would take this convo into another level of data I am sure. I see quite a few club players utilizing the float, which I think is a great trend. Would be interested in everyones thoughts.
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Post by joetrinsey on Jul 13, 2021 9:24:18 GMT -5
I have learned a lot here. I am also interested in the science of "at what speed does the ball get the most movement?" Since we are talking about jump floats, a fast jump float is easier to pass (IMO) than a filthy one that drops off the table at a slower MPH. I would think there is a ton more science that would need to included in this study. Which would take this convo into another level of data I am sure. I see quite a few club players utilizing the float, which I think is a great trend. Would be interested in everyones thoughts.
There's a pretty good trend between speed and effectiveness. The faster you hit a float serve, the more effective it is (*) provided you can keep it in. For normal-sized players (under 5'10") they tend to cap out at being able to serve in at a high enough % (88%+) around 36-38mph. Taller players can start pushing up to 39 or 40 mph and players who are really hitting at high contact points can push up a little higher.
(*) As you noted, a dropping serve is really tough to deal with. The speed on those is also a bit of a function of where the player's top-end speed. You generally see something like a 6-7mph difference between the two. Similar to how a change-up by an MLB pitcher is still in the 80s, which would be a fast-ball at most levels of baseball. So you see smaller players who might hit 38mph deep might hit their dropping serve at 32mph, whereas a 6'3" player who is blasting 41mph to the endline might be able to hit their dropper at 35mph. |
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Post by mikegarrison on Jul 13, 2021 13:00:27 GMT -5
I have personally held radar guns for 100s, probably 1000s at this point, of 40mph+ float serves from high schoolers through Olympians. I'm talking measuring off the hand here. (And as dodger noticed, most guns that I'm familiar with, you hold the trigger and when you release it shows you the highest speed during that interval, which is going to be off contact.) I think measuring at reception point is a bit of an odd way to do. It's easiest just to measure it off hand contact. And as others have noted, this is why a little bit of spin kills your ability to serve effectively. A little bit of spin on the ball and you'll struggle to keep 36mph in the court. How do make sure the gun isn't measuring the hand speed? |
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Post by pelican on Jul 13, 2021 16:02:22 GMT -5
I have personally held radar guns for 100s, probably 1000s at this point, of 40mph+ float serves from high schoolers through Olympians. I'm talking measuring off the hand here. (And as dodger noticed, most guns that I'm familiar with, you hold the trigger and when you release it shows you the highest speed during that interval, which is going to be off contact.) I think measuring at reception point is a bit of an odd way to do. It's easiest just to measure it off hand contact. And as others have noted, this is why a little bit of spin kills your ability to serve effectively. A little bit of spin on the ball and you'll struggle to keep 36mph in the court. How do make sure the gun isn't measuring the hand speed? The ball moves faster than the hand. |
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Post by dodger on Jul 14, 2021 2:39:41 GMT -5
I have learned a lot here. I am also interested in the science of "at what speed does the ball get the most movement?" Since we are talking about jump floats, a fast jump float is easier to pass (IMO) than a filthy one that drops off the table at a slower MPH. I would think there is a ton more science that would need to included in this study. Which would take this convo into another level of data I am sure. I see quite a few club players utilizing the float, which I think is a great trend. Would be interested in everyones thoughts. Thats an interesting thought and there has been research on that exact point: what velocity gets the best movement? A study was done on a soccer ball, volleyball, baseball and ping pong ball: the velocity for optimal movement was found for each projectile: for the volleyball between 16 m s−1 and 18 m s−1: between 35.79 mph and 40.25mph. This was preformed on a molten soft touch vb. Summarize: to het a good knuckle action ball should float: different textures (seams, materials, shape, etc) will effect balls flight: and depending how the air flows around the ball and turbulence occurs because of these un even surfaces causes the ball to move in an un predictable pattern. One study with three different VB’s could manipulate direction by adjusting which panel was forward at time of serve contact or where valve was placed: but this was done by machine where the ball was hit from stationary start and could be placed in position: where as the act of serving (tossing ball) makes it extremely difficult to have this occur intentionally! Although many do try: video shows the ball moving before contact and the desired alignment pre-toss changing before contact! The leather ball with 16 panels should make for very unpredictable flights if struct at the right velocity so that the largest movements happen closer to the passer! So i would recommend measuring at the end line or where passers contact to attempt to achieve optimal velocity after crossing net: remembering from contact the ball will decelerate due to draft (air) on average a bit more than 1 mph for each 7 feet traveled! |
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Post by mikegarrison on Jul 14, 2021 16:17:29 GMT -5
How do make sure the gun isn't measuring the hand speed? The ball moves faster than the hand. My first though was "no way", but then I realized that of course that is probably true. The arm has more mass than the ball, so when energy is transferred from the arm to the ball, it will result in a higher speed from the ball than the arm had. But not all the arm's energy is transferred to the ball, because the arm doesn't completely stop. However, I guess enough of it must be. |
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