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Post by oldnewbie on Jan 30, 2022 11:59:58 GMT -5
I figured the thread would deteriorate into what it has. I’m sympathetic to you. I really am. I’m heartbroken for your son. That’s a tough pill to swallow. At the same time, it’s simply impractical to think your daughter is going to play organized sports at the collegiate level without being vaccinated. You’re in a dream world if you think that’s going to happen. It’s okay to live in a dream world, but it’s a bummer you’re giving your daughter false expectations. This really isn’t true. There are plenty of universities that don’t require vaccination from students. universitybusiness.com/state-by-state-look-at-colleges-requiring-vaccines/It is also pretty easy at a large percentage of schools with vaccine mandates to opt out. There were definitely teams with one or more players that refused the vaccine but were allowed to stay on the team. Depending on the school, that could cause the school to impose additional requirements even on the vaccinated players, which was loads of fun. |
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Post by n00b on Jan 30, 2022 12:11:21 GMT -5
Covid is also currently running through large pools of the vaccinated. I don't think there was any chance of stopping mutations before a vaccination came to the public. If your argument is that the US is too blindly polarized and that about 30% of the population is too selfish and self-centered (I'll refrain from saying what I really think of them) to act for the greater good and that without that 30% any attempt to control the virus through modified behavior (social distance, hand washing, masks, no large gathering) was doomed to fail, then I completely agree. I thought better of Americans. You didn't. You were right. As for Covid running through pools of the vaccinated, that is a huge stretch. It is largely running through the unvaccinated, but the vaccinated are continuously exposed by those idiots when and where they should not be, so yes, there is some reinfection. That reinfection is at hugely reduced levels and at hugely reduced severity in the vaccinated population. If everyone was vaccinated, Covid would re-infect too slowly to sustain itself and it would die out. Will it flare up from around the world? Yes. Will the mutations be fewer and further in between if we get this vaccine out to the world? Yes. Well I certainly agree with that last part. Instead of banging our heads against the wall to get Americans vaccinated who don’t want it, we should be getting the vaccine to people in other parts of the world who DO want it. But I just can’t ever imagine asking my neighbor to make a medical decision for MY benefit. I’m vaccinated because I believe it’s extremely safe and it would make my life better. (FWIW, I still tested positive for COVID earlier this winter) If my neighbor disagrees with that, I think they’re wrong, but I trust the vaccine to keep me safe. |
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Post by BuckysHeat on Jan 30, 2022 13:36:26 GMT -5
Covid is also currently running through large pools of the vaccinated. I don't think there was any chance of stopping mutations before a vaccination came to the public. If your argument is that the US is too blindly polarized and that about 30% of the population is too selfish and self-centered (I'll refrain from saying what I really think of them) to act for the greater good and that without that 30% any attempt to control the virus through modified behavior (social distance, hand washing, masks, no large gathering) was doomed to fail, then I completely agree. I thought better of Americans. You didn't. You were right. As for Covid running through pools of the vaccinated, that is a huge stretch. It is largely running through the unvaccinated, but the vaccinated are continuously exposed by those idiots when and where they should not be, so yes, there is some reinfection. That reinfection is at hugely reduced levels and at hugely reduced severity in the vaccinated population. If everyone was vaccinated, Covid would re-infect too slowly to sustain itself and it would die out. Will it flare up from around the world? Yes. Will the mutations be fewer and further in between if we get this vaccine out to the world? Yes. Beginning of January, Dane County (Madison), which has the highest vaccination rate in the state, also had the highest incidence of infections. They have also had a mask mandate in place since July 2020. At the same time, the entire northeast (New York to Maine), which is also the most vaccinated region in the nation, also had the highest per 100K infection rate at the beginning of the year. I am vaxxed but won't get boosted as omicron isn't checking for cards and doesn't care about your status. Was actually vaxxed within 3 days of my group becoming eligible. |
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Post by oldnewbie on Jan 30, 2022 13:48:33 GMT -5
If your argument is that the US is too blindly polarized and that about 30% of the population is too selfish and self-centered (I'll refrain from saying what I really think of them) to act for the greater good and that without that 30% any attempt to control the virus through modified behavior (social distance, hand washing, masks, no large gathering) was doomed to fail, then I completely agree. I thought better of Americans. You didn't. You were right. As for Covid running through pools of the vaccinated, that is a huge stretch. It is largely running through the unvaccinated, but the vaccinated are continuously exposed by those idiots when and where they should not be, so yes, there is some reinfection. That reinfection is at hugely reduced levels and at hugely reduced severity in the vaccinated population. If everyone was vaccinated, Covid would re-infect too slowly to sustain itself and it would die out. Will it flare up from around the world? Yes. Will the mutations be fewer and further in between if we get this vaccine out to the world? Yes. Beginning of January, Dane County (Madison), which has the highest vaccination rate in the state, also had the highest incidence of infections. They have also had a mask mandate in place since July 2020. At the same time, the entire northeast (New York to Maine), which is also the most vaccinated region in the nation, also had the highest per 100K infection rate at the beginning of the year. I am vaxxed but won't get boosted as omicron isn't checking for cards and doesn't care about your status. Was actually vaxxed within 3 days of my group becoming eligible. Yup. It is also cold right now in the Midwest moving east but that doesn't mean global warming is not real. Your numbers don't mean what you are inmplying that they mean. |
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Post by BuckysHeat on Jan 30, 2022 14:51:45 GMT -5
Beginning of January, Dane County (Madison), which has the highest vaccination rate in the state, also had the highest incidence of infections. They have also had a mask mandate in place since July 2020. At the same time, the entire northeast (New York to Maine), which is also the most vaccinated region in the nation, also had the highest per 100K infection rate at the beginning of the year. I am vaxxed but won't get boosted as omicron isn't checking for cards and doesn't care about your status. Was actually vaxxed within 3 days of my group becoming eligible. Yup. It is also cold right now in the Midwest moving east but that doesn't mean global warming is not real. Your numbers don't mean what you are inmplying that they mean. yep, dead end convo with you. I bring what is happening, you bring snark. By the way, your political statements are meaningless, lifelong dem here. Happen to understand climate change and its human made causes. Also happen to understand diseases and stats having a background which happens to include virology and multiple levels of advanced math. But go on knowing what you know which is unchanging. |
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Post by badgerbreath on Jan 30, 2022 14:53:11 GMT -5
Vaccines will only ever completely eradicate diseases in a very few instances - only viruses that evolve extremely slowly and to which immune responses are long lasting (e.g., measles, smallpox). There was a hope that we could eliminate COVID with vaccines, IF we brought the number of infected down and reduced the chance of a new strain evolving. It seemed reasonable. SarsCov2 does not actually evolve that fast compared to many viruses. But we didn't limit the spread in time and we let it accumulate mutations and eventually evolve in pretty large pool of unvaccinated people. Many of the new strains were controlled by the vaccine, but now we have a very deviant strain evading the vaccine. I'm afraid we are stuck with it into the foreseeable future.
In that case, disease elimination is not the relevant measure of vaccine's success. They also help your immune system respond properly should you get infected, until we get an omicron-specific vaccine. Fully vaccinated and boosted people are 40-50x (!!!) less likely to be hospitalized or die from omicron. Of course, omicron is also wildly more contagious than previous SarsCov2 strains. So even though it is less lethal, it will still kill more people. Those people are overwhelmingly non-vaccinated - though there are always exceptions one can harp on.
Every time one plays with the immune system, one has to balance risks. In this case one is balancing the extremely rare chance of developing side effects, with the likely protection against severe outcomes of a rapidly spreading disease. Not taking a vaccine is like choosing to drive full speed on into a wall to avoid the possibility of getting rear ended if you stop. Yeah, I guess you could get rear-ended, but I'd take my chances.
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Post by oldnewbie on Jan 30, 2022 15:19:31 GMT -5
Yup. It is also cold right now in the Midwest moving east but that doesn't mean global warming is not real. Your numbers don't mean what you are inmplying that they mean. yep, dead end convo with you. I bring what is happening, you bring snark. By the way, your political statements are meaningless, lifelong dem here. Happen to understand climate change and its human made causes. Also happen to understand diseases and stats having a background which happens to include virology and multiple levels of advanced math. But go on knowing what you know which is unchanging. What snark? I was serious. Thanks for blowing that off. What political statements? You have no idea what my background or my credentials are, but you are awfully quick and feel free to claim the high ground and cast aspersions? Please. There was no convo to be had with you on this to begin with. You can respond or not. We've already established that neither of us cares. I won't add anymore to this thread. It's not now and never was about volleyball so it shouldn't be here. |
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Jan 30, 2022 19:03:08 GMT -5
Vaccines will only ever completely eradicate diseases in a very few instances - only viruses that evolve extremely slowly and to which immune responses are long lasting (e.g., measles, smallpox). There was a hope that we could eliminate COVID with vaccines, IF we brought the number of infected down and reduced the chance of a new strain evolving. It seemed reasonable. SarsCov2 does not actually evolve that fast compared to many viruses. But we didn't limit the spread in time and we let it accumulate mutations and eventually evolve in pretty large pool of unvaccinated people. Many of the new strains were controlled by the vaccine, but now we have a very deviant strain evading the vaccine. I'm afraid we are stuck with it into the foreseeable future. In that case, disease elimination is not the relevant measure of vaccine's success. They also help your immune system respond properly should you get infected, until we get an omicron-specific vaccine. Fully vaccinated and boosted people are 40-50x (!!!) less likely to be hospitalized or die from omicron. Of course, omicron is also wildly more contagious than previous SarsCov2 strains. So even though it is less lethal, it will still kill more people. Those people are overwhelmingly non-vaccinated - though there are always exceptions one can harp on. Every time one plays with the immune system, one has to balance risks. In this case one is balancing the extremely rare chance of developing side effects, with the likely protection against severe outcomes of a rapidly spreading disease. Not taking a vaccine is like choosing to drive full speed on into a wall to avoid the possibility of getting rear ended if you stop. Yeah, I guess you could get rear-ended, but I'd take my chances. This isn't a question of whether vaccines are good or bad, but whether they should be mandated. Honest question - since you have been reasonable throughout Covid - At this point - is increasing the number of people that are vaccinated really making it materially safer for those vaccinated? I am vaccinated and boosted - to my knowledge, I haven't gotten Covid (although I kind of wish I also had that kind of immunity in addition to my vaccinations). I have no 'fear' of being around unvaccinated people (in my area, I am with mostly unvaccinated people for long periods of time). I wish more people would decide to vaccinate, but I don't believe I have the right to force them to do this. |
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Post by JT on Jan 30, 2022 19:22:47 GMT -5
This isn't a question of whether vaccines are good or bad, but whether they should be mandated. Well, for you it might only be whether they should be mandated, but there’s plenty of noise/lies about the vaccine being useless or even harmful. As for whether they should be mandated… easily-transmitted infectious diseases (like Covid, polio, measles, … but *unlike* things like tetanus, HIV, or rabies) are a threat to everyone when allowed to flow through the population. 1) Mutations occur the more the virus is allowed to replicate. 2) “Vaccination” is NOT “immunity to.” In fact, the medical community calls a vaccine effective if it confers a 50% resistance to the disease, compared to no-vaccination. 1) The increase in number of people (in the US) has slowed to a crawl. It is now going up by a tenth of a percent in a week. No, that increase is NOT really making it materially safer. 2) We also need to bring the worldwide percentage up, to stop/slow the number of mutations, before anything will become significantly effective. Society ought to have the power to make community spaces safe. We restrict individuals in public in tons of ways. If an individual doesn’t want to conform to societal norms for safety (drunk, disorderly/violent, vaccinations for infectious diseases, …) then society ought not be under obligation to let them participate. |
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Post by n00b on Jan 30, 2022 19:47:40 GMT -5
Society ought to have the power to make community spaces safe. We restrict individuals in public in tons of ways. If an individual doesn’t want to conform to societal norms for safety (drunk, disorderly/violent, vaccinations for infectious diseases, …) then society ought not be under obligation to let them participate. Sure. Although I feel very safe as a vaccinated individual because I trust the vaccine is effective. If I’m sitting at a bar having a drink, I feel no more or less safe knowing the vaccination status of the person next to me. |
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Post by bigjohn043 on Jan 30, 2022 19:57:13 GMT -5
Vaccines will only ever completely eradicate diseases in a very few instances - only viruses that evolve extremely slowly and to which immune responses are long lasting (e.g., measles, smallpox). There was a hope that we could eliminate COVID with vaccines, IF we brought the number of infected down and reduced the chance of a new strain evolving. It seemed reasonable. SarsCov2 does not actually evolve that fast compared to many viruses. But we didn't limit the spread in time and we let it accumulate mutations and eventually evolve in pretty large pool of unvaccinated people. Many of the new strains were controlled by the vaccine, but now we have a very deviant strain evading the vaccine. I'm afraid we are stuck with it into the foreseeable future. In that case, disease elimination is not the relevant measure of vaccine's success. They also help your immune system respond properly should you get infected, until we get an omicron-specific vaccine. Fully vaccinated and boosted people are 40-50x (!!!) less likely to be hospitalized or die from omicron. Of course, omicron is also wildly more contagious than previous SarsCov2 strains. So even though it is less lethal, it will still kill more people. Those people are overwhelmingly non-vaccinated - though there are always exceptions one can harp on. Every time one plays with the immune system, one has to balance risks. In this case one is balancing the extremely rare chance of developing side effects, with the likely protection against severe outcomes of a rapidly spreading disease. Not taking a vaccine is like choosing to drive full speed on into a wall to avoid the possibility of getting rear ended if you stop. Yeah, I guess you could get rear-ended, but I'd take my chances. This is a good post and thoughtful. I agree that vaccines aren't going to eliminate this disease and many people miss the idea that it isn't just what we are doing in this country. Globally there are large populations not vaccinated and our vaccination rates (depending on the metric you use) aren't that different than many other countries. I would also add that with Omicron, it is not clear how effective the vaccines are at preventing the disease. I of course totally agree with your point that the vaccines reduce severe outcomes significantly. It is important to note that the balance you point to is very different depending upon a set of factors. If you are in your 80s then the balance is very simple. This is a deadly disease and you likely don't have long to live in any case so side effects probably aren't as important. The balance is very different for young and healthy people where the underlying risk of the disease is much much lower and there should be more focus on the long term implications. Sweden is not recommending vaccines for 5-11 year olds. This isn't a bunch of Trumpers, it is Sweden. The WHO says there is not evidence that health children and adolescents need boosters. I think we should all remain humble about what we know. The fact is that we are still learning and the virus is changing. My guess is that for middle aged and older people vaccines are going to remain critical. I think for kids it is a lot less clear. |
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Jan 31, 2022 7:39:19 GMT -5
This isn't a question of whether vaccines are good or bad, but whether they should be mandated. Society ought to have the power to make community spaces safe. We restrict individuals in public in tons of ways. If an individual doesn’t want to conform to societal norms for safety (drunk, disorderly/violent, vaccinations for infectious diseases, …) then society ought not be under obligation to let them participate. Thanks for not answering my question and replacing with a straw man. 'conform to social norms'? Some polling shows ~ 60% of the people support vaccine mandates - this was from several months ago. I suspect this % is continuing to go down as we have gone through the Omicron experience. If 35% isn't getting the vaccine - assume that almost all of these people are opposed to vaccine mandates. And then there is a sizable percentage of people like me that supports vaccines but not mandates. Support for mandates isn't some social norm - it is a narrow majority with power that is imposing their medical belief on others. |
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Post by Winbabywin on Jan 31, 2022 8:35:37 GMT -5
What a freakin SH*T SHOW of a thread!
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Post by vbnerd on Jan 31, 2022 11:57:07 GMT -5
This is a good way to put your girls at a significant college recruiting disadvantage. Having an unvaxed kid on a college roster is so difficult that if I knew ahead of time they were not going to get vacinated, I would not recruit them at all. My son has myocarditis from the COVID vaccine and we are getting a settlement. That all sounds well and good but his heart function will never be normal again. He will not be playing college basketball anymore. So my daughter is not getting the vaccine. We would just prefer like-minded people because our current club team has a surgeon and some other wiseacres that want to lecture us about the need to be vaccinated like they are some kind of authority on it. If we don't play club next year that's OK too. She's 6'1" and well known and heavily recruited so I'm sure we can get a waiver from somebody. Rhetorically there is no reason to mention the surgeon. "Our current club team has some wiseacres..." is a strong card if you are making an argument like this. When s/he includes the surgeon and doubts that the surgeon would have any claim to "some kind of authority" over a medical subject - I feel like that is where a well crafted ruse falls apart. This is probably a troll account set up to have some fun with everybody, and it's gone on for 3 more pages. For VT fans August can't get here soon enough. |
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Post by txvbcoach on Jan 31, 2022 12:07:51 GMT -5
My son has myocarditis from the COVID vaccine and we are getting a settlement. That all sounds well and good but his heart function will never be normal again. He will not be playing college basketball anymore. So my daughter is not getting the vaccine. We would just prefer like-minded people because our current club team has a surgeon and some other wiseacres that want to lecture us about the need to be vaccinated like they are some kind of authority on it. If we don't play club next year that's OK too. She's 6'1" and well known and heavily recruited so I'm sure we can get a waiver from somebody. Rhetorically there is no reason to mention the surgeon. "Our current club team has some wiseacres..." is a strong card if you are making an argument like this. When s/he includes the surgeon and doubts that the surgeon would have any claim to "some kind of authority" over a medical subject - I feel like that is where a well crafted ruse falls apart. This is probably a troll account set up to have some fun with everybody, and it's gone on for 3 more pages. For VT fans August can't get here soon enough. I picked up on those phrases as well and instantly said "troll". I haven't been back to this thread since. Glad to know others picked up on the subtle troll cues. If the person is legit then I can only say 2022 is going strong with anti-covid, anti-vaxxers and anti-health "experts doing their own research". |
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