bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Dec 7, 2022 14:20:42 GMT -5
Jackson was a great player. OPS+ is a decent stat, but it is flawed in the ways that OPS is flawed (it over values slugging percentage vs. on base percentage). wRC+ is a better metric. Jackson had less than 5700 plate appearances. His career OPS+ would have gone down had he continued his career.No kidding. He's still a Hall of Famer. And according to this, Jackson's career wRC+ was 165, which is tied for 8th all time. That doesn't help your argument. Yes, if he had a normal career, there would have been a decline in his rate numbers as he aged, but his counting numbers would be a lot better too. I am not arguing against Jackson being a great player or that his stats do not qualify him as a HOF player. I just cannot get past him throwing the world series. I am aware of Jackson's wRC+ - and the comment that it is a better stat wasn't directed to imply that it would necessarily be worse than OPS+. Since Jackson wasn't a power hitter and had a high OBP - I would expect his wRC+ to be better than his OPS+ (relationally speaking). But I was referring comparing the OPS+ or wRC+ of a player with 5700 plate appearances with a more normal 10,000 plate appearances for a HOF caliber player to be unfair.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2022 14:21:52 GMT -5
Absolutely he threw it. Jackson is the only left fielder in World Series history to misplay multiple triples permitting runs to score in the same series. If you look at when he did well in the series, you'll see he did it when it didn't matter. It's a pity because Jackson was great. Also, he's not the only one in that era to throw games. Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker did. And if you look at the game stories of the 1918 Series, you can come to a reasonable conclusion that the Cubs tossed the Series the year before the Black Sox. If I remember correctly, I think the White Sox were trying to win some games and lose others, so that might explain why his overall numbers were good. Correct. Chicago papers had had rumors of a 'fix' being in and a lot of gossip about White Sox players associating with the players from the '18 Cubs. I thought it was Cicotte who told people that they intended to make sure the Series went at least eight games to 'prove' there wasn't a fix.
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Post by bbg95 on Dec 7, 2022 14:31:21 GMT -5
No kidding. He's still a Hall of Famer. And according to this, Jackson's career wRC+ was 165, which is tied for 8th all time. That doesn't help your argument. Yes, if he had a normal career, there would have been a decline in his rate numbers as he aged, but his counting numbers would be a lot better too. I am not arguing against Jackson being a great player or that his stats do not qualify him as a HOF player. I just cannot get past him throwing the world series. I am aware of Jackson's wRC+ - and the comment that it is a better stat wasn't directed to imply that it would necessarily be worse than OPS+. Since Jackson wasn't a power hitter and had a high OBP - I would expect his wRC+ to be better than his OPS+ (relationally speaking). But I was referring comparing the OPS+ or wRC+ of a player with 5700 plate appearances with a more normal 10,000 plate appearances for a HOF caliber player to be unfair. Fair enough. I do agree that the rate stats need to be considered in the context of the shorter career, but I also think the counting stats need to be considered on that basis as well. I don't think it's fair to Jackson to somewhat discount his rate stats while at the same time taking his counting stats at face value. To be fair, I don't believe that this is what you're doing (at least I can't remember you doing that). It's just more of a comment about my general philosophy.
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bluepenquin
Hall of Fame
4-Time VolleyTalk Poster of the Year (2019, 2018, 2017, 2016), All-VolleyTalk 1st Team (2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016) All-VolleyTalk 2nd Team 2023
Posts: 12,944
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Post by bluepenquin on Dec 7, 2022 14:32:40 GMT -5
No kidding. He's still a Hall of Famer. And according to this, Jackson's career wRC+ was 165, which is tied for 8th all time. That doesn't help your argument. Yes, if he had a normal career, there would have been a decline in his rate numbers as he aged, but his counting numbers would be a lot better too. I found the FanGraphs career wRC+ leaders, which I hadn't looked at before. 1. Babe Ruth 2. Ted Williams 3. Lou Gehrig 4. Rogers Hornsby 5. Barry Bonds 6. Mike Trout 7. Mickey Mantle 8. Ty Cobb 9. Joe Jackson 10. Stan Musial I did not realize that Mike Trout was quite that high (he's also seventh on the career OPS+ leader board). And Mark McGwire is 12th (14th in OPS+). For a side project I worked on - I took the peak 10 consecutive years (eliminating injuries, war, covid, strike, etc) and calculated the wRC+ for those 10 seasons. Here was the top 30 players of all-time for that metric. 1. Babe Ruth - 206.3 2. Ted Williams - 196.6 3. Barry Bonds - 192.9 4. Ty Cobb - 188.9 5. Rogers Hornsby - 186.5 6. Lou Gehrig - 183.0 7. Mickey Mantle - 176.1 8. Mike Trout - 174.0 9. Stan Musial - 173.5 10. Honus Wagner - 169.3 11. Albert Pujols - 168.7 12. Johnny Mize - 167.2 13. Jimmie Foxx - 165.9 14. Joe Jackson - 165.1 15. Frank Thomas - 164.9 16. Nap Lajoie - 164.7 17. Tris Speaker - 164.4 18. Willie Mays - 164.2 19. Frank Robinson - 163.7 20. Mark McGwire - 163.5 21. Dick Allen - 163.1 22. Mel Ott - 162.1 23. Willie McCovey - 161.9 24. Ed Delahanty - 159.5 25. Hank Aaron - 159.4 26. Miguel Cabrera - 158.3 27. Joey Votto - 158.1 28. Jeff Bagwell - 157.9 29. Manny Ramirez - 157.4 30. Harry Heilmann - 156.7 Edit - I had two versions of Trout. now corrected.
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bluepenquin
Hall of Fame
4-Time VolleyTalk Poster of the Year (2019, 2018, 2017, 2016), All-VolleyTalk 1st Team (2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016) All-VolleyTalk 2nd Team 2023
Posts: 12,944
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Post by bluepenquin on Dec 7, 2022 14:41:12 GMT -5
Here is the top 50 in terms of fWAR (10 year peak). I did exclude some 19th century players. And this doesn't include pitchers.
1. Babe Ruth - 108.2 2. Rogers Hornsby - 97.1 3. Lou Gehrig - 92.7 4. Barry Bonds - 92.5 5. Willie Mays - 92.1 6. Honus Wagner - 90.4 7. Ted Williams - 90.2 8. Ty Cobb - 88.3 9. Mickey Mantle - 83.5 10. Stan Musial - 83.3
11. Mike Trout - 80.0 12. Mike Schmidt - 78.7 13. Alex Rodriguez - 78.3 14. Jimmie Foxx - 77.7 15. Albert Pujols - 77.3 16. Tris Speaker - 76.4 17. Hank Aaron - 76.3 18. Eddie Collins - 76.1 19. Mel Ott - 72.5 20. Nap Lajoie - 72.2
21. Eddie Mathews - 71.4 22. Rickey Henderson - 70.2 23. Joe Morgan - 70.0 24. Joe DiMaggio - 69.9 25. Wade Boggs - 69.3 26. Ken Griffey Jr. - 66.3 27. Cal Ripken Jr. - 66.3 27. Ed Delahanty - 66.3 29. Ron Santo - 66.6 30. Jeff Bagwell - 63.9
31. Arky Vaughan - 63.1 32. Frank Robinson - 63.0 33. Johnny Mize - 62.4 34. Carl Yastrzemski - 61.8 35. Lou Boudreau - 61.0 36. Andruw Jones - 50.9 37. Charlie Gehringer - 60.8 38. George Brett - 60.4 38. Roberto Clemente - 60.4 40. Johnny Bench - 60.4
41. Hank Greenberg - 60.2 42. Al Simmons - 59.9 43. Joe Jackson - 59.6 43. Billy Hamilton - 59.6 45. Frankie Frisch - 59.1 46. Mike Piazza - 59.0 46. Gary Carter - 59.0 48. Joe Gordon - 58.6 49. Chase Utley - 57.7 49. Frank Thomas - 57.3
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Post by nowhereman on Dec 7, 2022 20:36:52 GMT -5
MLB.com made the Mets signing Verlander official today.
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Post by nowhereman on Dec 8, 2022 12:53:54 GMT -5
Xander Bogaerts signed 11 year deal with San Diego.
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Post by bbg95 on Dec 8, 2022 13:09:05 GMT -5
Xander Bogaerts signed 11 year deal with San Diego. Lol, an 11-year deal for a guy who is already 30. I'm sure that contract won't come back to bite them. Great deal for Bogaerts, though. Not only is he going to get paid a lot of money for a long time, but Boston -> San Diego is one of the best possible upgrades in terms of where to live.
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Post by mikegarrison on Dec 9, 2022 7:49:32 GMT -5
Xander Bogaerts signed 11 year deal with San Diego. Lol, an 11-year deal for a guy who is already 30. I'm sure that contract won't come back to bite them. Great deal for Bogaerts, though. Not only is he going to get paid a lot of money for a long time, but Boston -> San Diego is one of the best possible upgrades in terms of where to live. Cal Ripken Jr. played until he was 40. Ozzie Smith played until he was 41. Omar Vizquel played until he was 45. All of them stopped being everyday players around the time they turned 40. It's not impossible.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2022 7:55:31 GMT -5
Lol, an 11-year deal for a guy who is already 30. I'm sure that contract won't come back to bite them. Great deal for Bogaerts, though. Not only is he going to get paid a lot of money for a long time, but Boston -> San Diego is one of the best possible upgrades in terms of where to live. Cal Ripken Jr. played until he was 40. Ozzie Smith played until he was 41. Omar Vizquel played until he was 45. All of them stopped being everyday players around the time they turned 40. It's not impossible. Smith and Vizquel are two of the five best defensive shortstops ever. Bogaerts is far from that. After age 30, Ripken was below average in all but three of his last ten seasons and the best of those other three, he played half a season. The signing only works if they win now. No title and the signing is a massive failure for the team. For Bogaerts, good for him.
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Post by bbg95 on Dec 9, 2022 9:18:47 GMT -5
Lol, an 11-year deal for a guy who is already 30. I'm sure that contract won't come back to bite them. Great deal for Bogaerts, though. Not only is he going to get paid a lot of money for a long time, but Boston -> San Diego is one of the best possible upgrades in terms of where to live. Cal Ripken Jr. played until he was 40. Ozzie Smith played until he was 41. Omar Vizquel played until he was 45. All of them stopped being everyday players around the time they turned 40. It's not impossible. I don't think I said it was impossible. I think it's unlikely that he's still a great player in his late 30s and early 40s.
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Post by nowhereman on Dec 9, 2022 11:33:48 GMT -5
i think the padres giving Bogaerts that many years is lunacy. shades of the Angels giving Pujols 10 years. Five or six years max.
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Baseball
Dec 11, 2022 11:23:01 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2022 11:23:01 GMT -5
i think the padres giving Bogaerts that many years is lunacy. shades of the Angels giving Pujols 10 years. Five or six years max. I just think the dollar amounts are bonkers across the board and there is the fact The Padres are still giddy after fleecing Hader from the Brewers. Their time is now evidently.
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Post by nowhereman on Dec 13, 2022 20:50:06 GMT -5
Boston signs Kenley Jansen.
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Baseball
Dec 13, 2022 21:16:12 GMT -5
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Post by geddyleeridesagain on Dec 13, 2022 21:16:12 GMT -5
Boston signs Kenley Jansen. My ex-next door neighbor! Nice guy. Too bad he was playing for the evil empire at the time. The Giants signed Stripling soon after signing Manaea. I like what they’re doing with the pitching staff. They seem to be the front runner for Carlos Correa at the moment, he would be a big get…we’ll see, though, as Correa has a number of suitors.
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