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Post by ineedajob on Feb 9, 2023 11:46:36 GMT -5
Re-reading this article and trying to put together my reactions as they happen:
1. Revolving door - yes, that's a lot of turnover within the program
2. Where's the standard? The idea of "favorites" and having different expectations for different people - I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing for a coach. I have different expectations for players on the volleyball court, in the classroom, how they manage their time. It's the argument of treating players "equally" or treating them "fairly." I am more on the side of treating them fairly and recognizing that there should be different standards for different people.
Also, part of this seems like a gripe about playing time. I've seen this type of situation a lot. Coach is fully encouraging in practice and points out some of the good plays that BenchPlayer makes in practice. That player then feels like they should be in the game, but the player in front of them is still outperforming them. So no, they probably shouldn't play.
The rest of this section seems vague and I wish it could have been more detailed.
3. Athlete Appearance Yeah, this part sounds bad. There were more specifics here and that type of conversation shouldn't happen that way.
4. "You shouldn't have to ask" I feel like this part is tough to manage and it seems to be different with every team and with every player (back to treating players equal or fair). Especially the past couple years with COVID, there could be a lot of last-minute adjustments to the travel roster. Let's say you have 18 players but only 15 are allowed to travel - you give travel roster in advance. If you already told 3 players that they're not traveling a few days in advance, maybe they are discouraged and don't give their all at the next two practices before the team leaves because "Why try? I'm not traveling anyway."
Then what happens if, on the day you're supposed to leave, 3 players from the travel roster test positive for COVID. If I were coach, I'd want to bring the other players, but they were already de-motivated from not being put on the roster. Maybe they even made other plans because they weren't traveling that weekend (they are still college students). No matter what, I think it created the opportunity for problems no matter how it's approached.
5. Team vs Business, Person vs Player This is all very thin. I wish it were more detailed.
6. Round and Round Also, very thin.
I think the last two sections are about the same with the vagueness. Yes, as a coach, we try to encourage our players to make improvements to their lives outside the court. College is a time of growth as a person, it's a hard time even for non-athletes - sometimes that's helping a player learn proper behavior in a professional setting; sometimes it's about helping them with their time management; sometimes it's concern for that person because of the people they surround themselves with.
There is probably more that isn't detailed in this article that is more concerning, but I wish we could know those details.
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Post by luvcollegevball on Feb 9, 2023 11:46:59 GMT -5
As someone intimately involved with the program for 10+ years I can say the Collegian article does not scratch the surface. I recently saw an interview with Sharon regarding Women in leadership and she spent quite a bit of time talking about how players are so entitled they often try to get her fired if they don't get their way. NO! Different players and families approached the administration numerous times over the years and specifically outlined instances that were over the top. The administration did not care. I am glad she is no longer there and I hope Butler can bring in a leader who loves the game, wants to be a part of the Butler and Indianapolis community and values her players. I also hope the the AD, Barry Collier, will be held accountable for ignoring the numerous cries for help.
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Post by sizzlincatfish on Feb 9, 2023 11:51:05 GMT -5
No one can defend themselves against ghosts and pho articlesarticles about Vietnamese soup? Nothing more dangerous than soup.
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Post by Phaedrus on Feb 9, 2023 12:04:51 GMT -5
articles about Vietnamese soup? Nothing more dangerous than soup. Not just soup, it's pho.
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Post by eazy on Feb 9, 2023 12:06:25 GMT -5
4. "You shouldn't have to ask" I feel like this part is tough to manage and it seems to be different with every team and with every player (back to treating players equal or fair). Especially the past couple years with COVID, there could be a lot of last-minute adjustments to the travel roster. Let's say you have 18 players but only 15 are allowed to travel - you give travel roster in advance. If you already told 3 players that they're not traveling a few days in advance, maybe they are discouraged and don't give their all at the next two practices before the team leaves because "Why try? I'm not traveling anyway." I am also of the opinion that this article, while sad, does not show that the coach was a 'monster' However, I thought this portion was one of the most persuasive. This isn't about last minute adjustments. This is about a lack of communication/respect every step of the way. If you told 3 players that they're not traveling and they get discouraged.. then 1) it probably doesn't matter since they're not in your top 15 anyways. 2) that's your job as a coach to find ways to motivate them without keeping them in the dark about travel plans. If communicating with your team about a travel roster is too tough to manage, then you probably shouldn't be a head coach.
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Post by Phaedrus on Feb 9, 2023 12:19:30 GMT -5
Information is power. It seems that information was deliberately withheld from players and assistants with regularity. I don't know first hand if that was intentional, with the intent of keeping the people affected on edge for whatever psychological edge the coach may have on them or if the coach is a poor communicator in general, although you would think that she would be better at it after 23 years.
There are many tough coaches, tough coaches who are honest and forthcoming with their athletes, or even tough managers who are honest and forthcoming with the people they manage will succeed more often than not. The honesty breeds respect and trust, whereas someone who do not communicate all the information someone needs to make good decisions will fail because of a lack of trust. I see that demonstrated in this situation.
Further, someone talked about the difference between equal and fair treatment. I don't believe that the athletes of coaches interviewed were talking about equal treatment, I believe that they were asking for fair treatment. As someone who is allowed to be on the team, there are obligations going in both directions. Even as a practice player, you should expect a certain amount of human decency and fairness when dealing with the head of the program. I know practice players and walkons who feel privileged and honored to be on the squad, but I also know that they don't expect to be ignored. If she preached the gospel of one team and team cohesion for all the members of the team, then she fell far short of that. It is an amorphous standard to uphold for sure, but it sounds like she feels like she doesn't owe the members of the team who are not on her performance radar any consideration whatsoever.
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Post by mikegarrison on Feb 9, 2023 12:32:24 GMT -5
The coach told some players that if they wanted to improve and get more playing time they should lose weight. Did they want the coach to lie to them? Coaches tell players of both genders all of the time that they could improve if they lost or gained weight. This is just silly. This isn't about their appearance but about what it will take to make them successful as athletes. Is it though? Ever read the book Moneyball? One of the most ironic things in the entire book is when, after explaining that they *know* that picking players based on whether they "look athletic" or "look like a baseball player is supposed to look" is not as efficient as picking players based on key stats that predict performance, they see that Prince Fielder pops out really highly on their stat filters. And then they laugh and say, "no, even we aren't that crazy" and don't select him due to his body shape. Prince Fielder ended up getting more than 1000 RBIs, having a career OPS of .887, and being a 6-time All Star. (The first baseman they were really excited about, Kevin Youkilis, also had a good career, but not nearly as good as Fielder -- 600 RBIs, .861 OPS, 3-time All Star.) Coaches (like everyone else) have their cognitive biases. There is an image of what a volleyball player is supposed to look like, and players who don't fit that image are at risk of constantly being pressured to change themselves to fit the image, regardless of whether it actually improves their performance or their health.
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Post by n00b on Feb 9, 2023 12:48:05 GMT -5
Child abuse is different. If a parent doesn't feed their 1-year-old, it's abuse. I hope coaches aren't literally spoon-feeding their athletes. In this context, abuse would mean something like intentionally causing distress, intimidation or harassment. And it would be grounds to fire her for cause. I just don't see that here. Yes certainly not the extreme of child neglect and maybe the term "abuse" is harsh -- but to me, simply absence of something heinous is way too low of a bar to which we hold our coaches Well sure. I think bad coaches should lose their jobs. My bar for a coach getting fired isn't "abuse". And as I've said a couple times in this thread, I'm glad Butler is moving on. That doesn't make Clark "abusive".
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Post by coahc21 on Feb 9, 2023 13:21:23 GMT -5
The coach told some players that if they wanted to improve and get more playing time they should lose weight. Did they want the coach to lie to them? Coaches tell players of both genders all of the time that they could improve if they lost or gained weight. This is just silly. This isn't about their appearance but about what it will take to make them successful as athletes. Is it though? Ever read the book Moneyball? One of the most ironic things in the entire book is when, after explaining that they *know* that picking players based on whether they "look athletic" or "look like a baseball player is supposed to look" is not as efficient as picking players based on key stats that predict performance, they see that Prince Fielder pops out really highly on their stat filters. And then they laugh and say, "no, even we aren't that crazy" and don't select him due to his body shape. Prince Fielder ended up getting more than 1000 RBIs, having a career OPS of .887, and being a 6-time All Star. (The first baseman they were really excited about, Kevin Youkilis, also had a good career, but not nearly as good as Fielder -- 600 RBIs, .861 OPS, 3-time All Star.) Coaches (like everyone else) have their cognitive biases. There is an image of what a volleyball player is supposed to look like, and players who don't fit that image are at risk of constantly being pressured to change themselves to fit the image, regardless of whether it actually improves their performance or their health. If there is a fitness standard for the program, she may have said that they need to get quicker, or increase their approach touch..I find it pretty hard to believe she would say, lose weight to "look more like a volleyball player." Likely she meant to say that you are not meeting the fitness standards of our program (which is completely justified, especially at the D1 level), but maybe did not say it in a very tactful way. I very much doubt that aesthetics had anything to do with it.
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money
Sophomore
Posts: 213
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Post by money on Feb 9, 2023 13:29:24 GMT -5
You don’t have to tell an athlete to lose weight for them to HEAR, “you’re overweight.”
Athletes hear things that aren’t said all the time.
I have no idea about the Butler situation, but it’s accurate in my experience…
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Post by Phaedrus on Feb 9, 2023 13:41:34 GMT -5
Yes certainly not the extreme of child neglect and maybe the term "abuse" is harsh -- but to me, simply absence of something heinous is way too low of a bar to which we hold our coaches Well sure. I think bad coaches should lose their jobs. My bar for a coach getting fired isn't "abuse". And as I've said a couple times in this thread, I'm glad Butler is moving on. That doesn't make Clark "abusive". It really depends on what you call abuse. For some, abuse can be anything from physical abuse to mental anguish. It is so broad we can drive a truck through it. Some will think only in terms of physical abuse. I think there is a major confusion when people say "abuse" because it can mean so many things. I believe mental anguish is mental abuse. My university's mental health center warned all the faculty in 2020, before the COVID pandemic, to be aware of the on campus and national statistic that the incoming classes are showing rapidly increasing signs of emotional distress. The stats for suicide, depression, and other forms of mental challenges were increasing at a high rate. If the coach is unaware or uncaring regarding these symptoms and are deliberately adding on to their mental state, then I would call is abuse as well.
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Post by silverchloride on Feb 9, 2023 14:14:07 GMT -5
Cutting weight is a regular part of a myriad of sports, it is not unusual in and of itself.
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Post by n00b on Feb 9, 2023 14:30:48 GMT -5
Well sure. I think bad coaches should lose their jobs. My bar for a coach getting fired isn't "abuse". And as I've said a couple times in this thread, I'm glad Butler is moving on. That doesn't make Clark "abusive". It really depends on what you call abuse. For some, abuse can be anything from physical abuse to mental anguish. It is so broad we can drive a truck through it. Some will think only in terms of physical abuse. I think there is a major confusion when people say "abuse" because it can mean so many things. I believe mental anguish is mental abuse. My university's mental health center warned all the faculty in 2020, before the COVID pandemic, to be aware of the on campus and national statistic that the incoming classes are showing rapidly increasing signs of emotional distress. The stats for suicide, depression, and other forms of mental challenges were increasing at a high rate. If the coach is unaware or uncaring regarding these symptoms and are deliberately adding on to their mental state, then I would call is abuse as well. I agree, and I think “deliberately” is the key word there. I don’t think apathy and rudeness are, by themselves, abuse. Although there is probably correlation between those characteristics.
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Post by Phaedrus on Feb 9, 2023 14:36:36 GMT -5
It really depends on what you call abuse. For some, abuse can be anything from physical abuse to mental anguish. It is so broad we can drive a truck through it. Some will think only in terms of physical abuse. I think there is a major confusion when people say "abuse" because it can mean so many things. I believe mental anguish is mental abuse. My university's mental health center warned all the faculty in 2020, before the COVID pandemic, to be aware of the on campus and national statistic that the incoming classes are showing rapidly increasing signs of emotional distress. The stats for suicide, depression, and other forms of mental challenges were increasing at a high rate. If the coach is unaware or uncaring regarding these symptoms and are deliberately adding on to their mental state, then I would call is abuse as well. I agree, and I think “deliberately” is the key word there. I don’t think apathy and rudeness are, by themselves, abuse. Although there is probably correlation between those characteristics. But what if the apathy and rudeness leads to emotional distress and potential suicide. What then? Is it still not abuse?
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Post by bigjohn043 on Feb 9, 2023 14:45:04 GMT -5
The coach told some players that if they wanted to improve and get more playing time they should lose weight. Did they want the coach to lie to them? Coaches tell players of both genders all of the time that they could improve if they lost or gained weight. This is just silly. This isn't about their appearance but about what it will take to make them successful as athletes. As strange as it seems, you can swear, and lie and play favorites, but suggesting a player is overweight is harassment and mental abuse, end of story. Coaches can and have been fired for cause for this alone. You can tell them they need to jump higher, you can tell them they need to improve foot speed and reaction time, and you can suggest if they eat more vegetables they might have more energy to survive the extra conditioning intended to improve their foot speed and reaction time. You can call Mom and Dad and tell them to cancel her Uber eats account, and apparently in Seattle you can attempt to make the team walk home from the airport and still keep your job. But under NO circumstances can you ever, EVER suggest a female athlete lose weight. Maybe you know this kid will be ok with it, and maybe you know your admin will be ok with it, and yeah, it still happens, but suggesting a player cut weight is playing Russian Roulette with your job. Isn't that really stupid? My daughters coach has told her she needs to gain weight. And coaches tell male athletes all of the time they need to gain / lose weight.
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