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Post by eazy on Feb 9, 2023 14:55:20 GMT -5
The coach told some players that if they wanted to improve and get more playing time they should lose weight. Did they want the coach to lie to them? Coaches tell players of both genders all of the time that they could improve if they lost or gained weight. This is just silly. This isn't about their appearance but about what it will take to make them successful as athletes. As strange as it seems, you can swear, and lie and play favorites, but suggesting a player is overweight is harassment and mental abuse, end of story. Coaches can and have been fired for cause for this alone. You can tell them they need to jump higher, you can tell them they need to improve foot speed and reaction time, and you can suggest if they eat more vegetables they might have more energy to survive the extra conditioning intended to improve their foot speed and reaction time. You can call Mom and Dad and tell them to cancel her Uber eats account, and apparently in Seattle you can attempt to make the team walk home from the airport and still keep your job. But under NO circumstances can you ever, EVER suggest a female athlete lose weight. Maybe you know this kid will be ok with it, and maybe you know your admin will be ok with it, and yeah, it still happens, but suggesting a player cut weight is playing Russian Roulette with your job. Clearly you can tell a player they need to lose weight because players went to the admin and she was not fired. But go off I guess. There's also a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it. If a player is keeping count of how many times it is brought up on her phone, chances are the coach was going about it the wrong way.
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Post by n00b on Feb 9, 2023 15:10:45 GMT -5
I agree, and I think “deliberately” is the key word there. I don’t think apathy and rudeness are, by themselves, abuse. Although there is probably correlation between those characteristics. But what if the apathy and rudeness leads to emotional distress and potential suicide. What then? Is it still not abuse? In my opinion, no. You could have the most positive, caring coach in the country and an athlete feel emotional distress and suicidal thoughts because she isn't in the starting lineup.
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Post by Phaedrus on Feb 9, 2023 15:15:54 GMT -5
But what if the apathy and rudeness leads to emotional distress and potential suicide. What then? Is it still not abuse? In my opinion, no. You could have the most positive, caring coach in the country and an athlete feel emotional distress and suicidal thoughts because she isn't in the starting lineup. We clearly disagree.
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Post by gooseberry on Feb 9, 2023 17:06:23 GMT -5
My random, jumbled thoughts reading this article: I applaud the coaches who strive to run an efficient and fair program. They’re out there, but sadly there are many programs with issues like this one. As someone else said, there is a lot not being said in this article. Some might say we are dealing with an entitled generation - and being an dinosaur myself, I agree - yes, we are… BUT, student athletes are (for the most part) the strongest of the strong - both physically and mentally. If they've gotten this far in their sport, it takes a lot to break them. And also realize one athlete’s experience will differ from another’s on the same team - it’s when it gets personal there becomes an issue.
The main problem I see in college sports stems not from the coaches, but from the athletic directors and their entire administration. I suppose they answer to the donors - so follow the flow of money I guess?? The entire system is not set up well for the athletes to safely seek help within the university system. Even anonymous tips really aren’t that anonymous. Administration is required to investigate complaints, but I’ve seen so many instances where they’re just swept under the carpet and the girls simply get punished more by the coach(es).
To any player who is reading this thread, I think the best thing you can do is encourage any former players who have experienced the dirty side of college ball to go out and educate younger players. Do not be quiet about your experiences. Go to your former club, or some tournaments, and talk to the parents and players - don't be afraid to talk - show them how to recognize red flags - keep the information flowing. And if you've been broken, seek help.
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Post by FUBAR on Feb 9, 2023 17:32:46 GMT -5
But what if the apathy and rudeness leads to emotional distress and potential suicide. What then? Is it still not abuse? In my opinion, no. You could have the most positive, caring coach in the country and an athlete feel emotional distress and suicidal thoughts because she isn't in the starting lineup. This post gets to the assumption that how a player feels is directly a coaches fault. Coaches deliver information. Coaches can control their delivery some of the time. But coaches CAN NOT, and never will be able to control how every player on the roster receives & interprets that information.
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Post by Truther on Feb 9, 2023 17:59:11 GMT -5
Following the retirement of Butler head coach Sharon Clark, former players and assistant coaches anonymously speak up about their experiences with the program and culture under Clark thebutlercollegian.com/2023/02/too-far-for-too-long/Was mentioned in the coaches thread but thought it deserved its own threadI read the whole article and I don't really understand what this is about. The coach told some players that if they wanted to improve and get more playing time they should lose weight. Did they want the coach to lie to them? Coaches tell players of both genders all of the time that they could improve if they lost or gained weight. This is just silly. This isn't about their appearance but about what it will take to make them successful as athletes. Apparently different players were treated differently. Many coaches believe in very few team rules so that you can treat players as individuals and do the right thing when mistakes are made. The best coaches treat players individually because different players need different things. Phil Jackson treated Jordan differently than Rodman differently than other players. That is just the way the world works sometimes. And often perceptions of unfairness or special treatment lack a lot of context. Grow up. I guess there was some confusion about who travels to away games? Sounds abusive to me. Players are shocked that during their recruiting trip the coaches put their best foot forward? And then they went to the AD who wouldn't fire the coach due to abuse? FWIW, the numbers transferring suggest something was wrong here. Not saying it wasn't time to find a new coach. But these wacky claims of abuse suggest that one of the big problems was the athletes that were recruited. This response makes me sick to my stomach. Do I understand that coaches in college athletics may make comments about conditioning, performance, and overall value to a team - 100%. However, ANYONE let alone an individual who is in the position of a head coach, at not just a D1 program, but any institution, should absolutely never discuss the dimensions of someones body, their overall weight and the way that they look. I understand so many people struggle with small-minded, uneducated and ridiculous perceptions of college athletes but this comment is absolutely insane. These women are real people who have real emotions. This is a prime example of someone who clearly does not understand nor value that fact. To be in an environment that is harsh, disrespectful, and overall degrading makes me want to puke. If you truly read this article and were not concerned even in the slightest there is some much deeper self reflection that is needed. Clearly the same self reflection that Ms. Sharon and the rest of the faculty members involved need to do.
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Post by volleyguy on Feb 9, 2023 18:08:01 GMT -5
I read the whole article and I don't really understand what this is about. The coach told some players that if they wanted to improve and get more playing time they should lose weight. Did they want the coach to lie to them? Coaches tell players of both genders all of the time that they could improve if they lost or gained weight. This is just silly. This isn't about their appearance but about what it will take to make them successful as athletes. Apparently different players were treated differently. Many coaches believe in very few team rules so that you can treat players as individuals and do the right thing when mistakes are made. The best coaches treat players individually because different players need different things. Phil Jackson treated Jordan differently than Rodman differently than other players. That is just the way the world works sometimes. And often perceptions of unfairness or special treatment lack a lot of context. Grow up. I guess there was some confusion about who travels to away games? Sounds abusive to me. Players are shocked that during their recruiting trip the coaches put their best foot forward? And then they went to the AD who wouldn't fire the coach due to abuse? FWIW, the numbers transferring suggest something was wrong here. Not saying it wasn't time to find a new coach. But these wacky claims of abuse suggest that one of the big problems was the athletes that were recruited. This response makes me sick to my stomach. Do I understand that coaches in college athletics may make comments about conditioning, performance, and overall value to a team - 100%. However, ANYONE let alone an individual who is in the position of a head coach, at not just a D1 program, but any institution, should absolutely never discuss the dimensions of someones body, their overall weight and the way that they look. I understand so many people struggle with small-minded, uneducated and ridiculous perceptions of college athletes but this comment is absolutely insane. These women are real people who have real emotions. This is a prime example of someone who clearly does not understand nor value that fact. To be in an environment that is harsh, disrespectful, and overall degrading makes me want to puke. If you truly read this article and were not concerned even in the slightest there is some much deeper self reflection that is needed. Clearly the same self reflection that Ms. Sharon and the rest of the faculty members involved need to do. What is the appropriate way, in your view, for a coach to approach issues of fitness, conditioning and performance with an athlete or a team?
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Post by vbman100 on Feb 9, 2023 19:24:43 GMT -5
I agree, and I think “deliberately” is the key word there. I don’t think apathy and rudeness are, by themselves, abuse. Although there is probably correlation between those characteristics. But what if the apathy and rudeness leads to emotional distress and potential suicide. What then? Is it still not abuse? How do you define, or assign blame to, “potential suicide.”
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Post by vbman100 on Feb 9, 2023 19:32:19 GMT -5
I read the whole article and I don't really understand what this is about. However, ANYONE let alone an individual who is in the position of a head coach, at not just a D1 program, but any institution, should absolutely never discuss the dimensions of someones body, their overall weight and the way that they look. . You should visit some D1 football and basketball programs. It happens frequently. Especially for some guys who want to get drafted to play Pro. All of the comments about Bryce Young surrounding this year’s NFL draft are about how small he is. Height and weight. And I hate to tell you this, but wrestling is divided by weight class, so don’t visit any of those D1 programs.
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Post by bigjohn043 on Feb 9, 2023 22:08:54 GMT -5
However, ANYONE let alone an individual who is in the position of a head coach, at not just a D1 program, but any institution, should absolutely never discuss the dimensions of someones body, their overall weight and the way that they look. . You should visit some D1 football and basketball programs. It happens frequently. Especially for some guys who want to get drafted to play Pro. All of the comments about Bryce Young surrounding this year’s NFL draft are about how small he is. Height and weight. And I hate to tell you this, but wrestling is divided by weight class, so don’t visit any of those D1 programs. FWIW, they are actually looking to bring women's wrestling into the NCAA. I guess they can't do that now. Every coach out there looks at girls he is recruiting to evaluate their level of physical fitness. And every coach in the country is going to watch his players during their freshman year to make sure they aren't putting on bad weight. This has nothing to do with appearance but purely athletics. I guess I believe that girls are strong enough to be told the truth and given the knowledge they need to get better. Hang 10 pounds around any athlete and they are going to be slower and not jump as high. If you want to win you have to take care of your body and being outside the home the first time as a freshman means some kids are going to make bad decisions. The idea that girls are to fragile to be treated like real athletes where their body matters is just insulting.
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Post by Phaedrus on Feb 10, 2023 11:10:42 GMT -5
But what if the apathy and rudeness leads to emotional distress and potential suicide. What then? Is it still not abuse? How do you define, or assign blame to, “potential suicide.” Pretty much after the fact. After, hopefully, a failed attempt rather than a death. I feel that in this day and age, all coaches should be cognizant of the psychological makeup of their team. The athletic administration should provide them with the means and assets to foster greater understanding of the mental makeup of the athletes. They have, after all, promised the families to not only teach/coach them to reach their desired goals but also to protect them while they are involved with the program. It probably won't stand up legally, which is what most people feel is the ultimate metric, but it is a promise made to the individual, it is what we do a decent humans. You can't have it both ways, you can't say I want you to play for me and also so say: I don't care what happens to you while I am responsible for your well being.
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Post by captkirk on Feb 10, 2023 12:07:29 GMT -5
Had drinks with a former Butler asst (not sure if it's one who was interviewed for the article) and we were trading awful head coach stories. Mine are pretty intense, but theirs working for Sharon were on a whole different level of mistreatment of staff. I was not surprised to see the claims in this article. Coaches like this not only hurt players but negatively impact a lot of coaching careers as well.
*I know I don't post a lot so it could be fairly claimed I'm just piling on her *I agree the story was poorly written
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Post by reader on Feb 10, 2023 12:30:13 GMT -5
But what if the apathy and rudeness leads to emotional distress and potential suicide. What then? Is it still not abuse? In my opinion, no. You could have the most positive, caring coach in the country and an athlete feel emotional distress and suicidal thoughts because she isn't in the starting lineup. You could, and if that one athlete wasn't able to handle the news or her role then you would be right in laying "blame" elsewhere than with the coach. But dozens of athletes leaving a program over recent years, repeated trips to the AD and other leadership pass without change, and stories that are emerging are painting a bigger picture. So far we haven't heard of some of the truly horrible stories from other programs, but if I'm an AD I would expect my standards to be higher than "no lawsuits, not on CNN." If you have multiple athletes leaving their sport because their experience in your program was so painful then you have to take a moment to review why you're OK with that. This is much larger than a couple players having a mental health crisis.
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Post by FUBAR on Feb 10, 2023 13:33:33 GMT -5
How do you define, or assign blame to, “potential suicide.” They have, after all, promised the families to not only teach/coach them to reach their desired goals but also to protect them while they are involved with the program. It probably won't stand up legally, which is what most people feel is the ultimate metric, but it is a promise made to the individual, it is what we do a decent humans. You can't have it both ways, you can't say I want you to play for me and also so say: I don't care what happens to you while I am responsible for your well being. I disagree with this - coaches can't protect players from everything, and I don't think there is any implicit promise to. All a college coach, professor, friend can do is do their best with a person. Many of us have people in our lives we love dearly and can't stop them from going down a dark road. It doesn't mean we love them any less, we just don't have control of their minds nor 24/7 control of their actions.
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Post by dizzydean on Feb 10, 2023 13:42:03 GMT -5
This response makes me sick to my stomach. Do I understand that coaches in college athletics may make comments about conditioning, performance, and overall value to a team - 100%. However, ANYONE let alone an individual who is in the position of a head coach, at not just a D1 program, but any institution, should absolutely never discuss the dimensions of someones body, their overall weight and the way that they look. I understand so many people struggle with small-minded, uneducated and ridiculous perceptions of college athletes but this comment is absolutely insane. These women are real people who have real emotions. This is a prime example of someone who clearly does not understand nor value that fact. To be in an environment that is harsh, disrespectful, and overall degrading makes me want to puke. If you truly read this article and were not concerned even in the slightest there is some much deeper self reflection that is needed. Clearly the same self reflection that Ms. Sharon and the rest of the faculty members involved need to do. What is the appropriate way, in your view, for a coach to approach issues of fitness, conditioning and performance with an athlete or a team? By framing it as part of fitness, conditioning, and performance. Not as "you're overweight," especially with women.
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