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Post by volleyguy on Feb 10, 2023 13:53:28 GMT -5
What is the appropriate way, in your view, for a coach to approach issues of fitness, conditioning and performance with an athlete or a team? By framing it as part of fitness, conditioning, and performance. Not as "you're overweight," especially with women. That's merely on the direct presentation level. Of course, don't call someone fat. But that's always been true. Fitness, including weight, has always been correlated to performance. But something is different in these reactions, and I think a lot of coaches are trying to figure this out (or at least recognize the situation). Do you take out weight entirely from the correlation and discussion, or do you focus specifically on performance results (increase jump by 2 inches, etc.)?
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Post by winesalot on Feb 10, 2023 14:11:09 GMT -5
In my mind, weight never needs to be discussed. The focus should be on performance. Some athletes can perform at an elite level with excess body fat. If an athlete is not performing well, you may work on conditioning and nutrition. Yes, this may result in weight loss, but telling someone that they need to lose weight in a performance review is not helpful and can lead to other issues.
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Post by mikegarrison on Feb 10, 2023 17:50:15 GMT -5
Some athletes can perform at an elite level with excess body fat. Even more importantly, it may not be "excess" at all. It might be just the ideal amount of fat for their body when they are at full nutrition and fitness -- even if it is more than what the coach thinks is the "correct" amount.
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Post by fromonhigh on Feb 10, 2023 21:10:51 GMT -5
I'm going to take an unpopular position here, but if a coach truly believes that a player's weight is effecting their play, they have every right to express that opinion to the player. I don't believe that calling a player fat is appropriate, but "out of shape", "not in peak physical condition" even "...need to lose some weight" isn't too harsh; it's realistic. These are athletes who are getting something of value in return for meeting a set of criteria. If they can't meet those criteria they should expect consequences.
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Post by dizzydean on Feb 10, 2023 21:33:53 GMT -5
I'm going to take an unpopular position here, but if a coach truly believes that a player's weight is effecting their play, they have every right to express that opinion to the player. I don't believe that calling a player fat is appropriate, but "out of shape", "not in peak physical condition" even "...need to lose some weight" isn't too harsh; it's realistic. These are athletes who are getting something of value in return for meeting a set of criteria. If they can't meet those criteria they should expect consequences. I would tend to agree with you except that I know too many athletes who developed eating disorders as a result of being told they need to lose weight by their coaches.
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Post by mikegarrison on Feb 10, 2023 22:12:06 GMT -5
I'm going to take an unpopular position here, but if a coach truly believes that a player's weight is effecting their play, they have every right to express that opinion to the player. I don't believe that calling a player fat is appropriate, but "out of shape", "not in peak physical condition" even "...need to lose some weight" isn't too harsh; it's realistic. These are athletes who are getting something of value in return for meeting a set of criteria. If they can't meet those criteria they should expect consequences. It's only true if the coach is right. But coaches aren't always right. (Or even maybe often right. Being an expert on shoot sets and float serves, etc., does not make someone an expert on nutrition and health and the physiology of athletes.)
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Post by joetrinsey on Feb 11, 2023 13:26:27 GMT -5
How do you define, or assign blame to, “potential suicide.” Pretty much after the fact. After, hopefully, a failed attempt rather than a death. I feel that in this day and age, all coaches should be cognizant of the psychological makeup of their team. The athletic administration should provide them with the means and assets to foster greater understanding of the mental makeup of the athletes. They have, after all, promised the families to not only teach/coach them to reach their desired goals but also to protect them while they are involved with the program. It probably won't stand up legally, which is what most people feel is the ultimate metric, but it is a promise made to the individual, it is what we do a decent humans. You can't have it both ways, you can't say I want you to play for me and also so say: I don't care what happens to you while I am responsible for your well being.
I've been recommending this book to a lot of coaches.
I think it might help you develop a more nuanced view of a complicated topic.
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Post by joetrinsey on Feb 11, 2023 13:43:32 GMT -5
Some athletes can perform at an elite level with excess body fat. Even more importantly, it may not be "excess" at all. It might be just the ideal amount of fat for their body when they are at full nutrition and fitness -- even if it is more than what the coach thinks is the "correct" amount.
100% that jerk coaches who are commenting on physical appearance have taken weight discussions off the table in today's environment. But...
One thing that's worth mentioning is that "weight" and "fitness" aren't a 100% overlap and sometimes weight is the more accurate number for an athlete to consider. Volleyball is an impact sport and excess weight can put a pounding on knees and ankles. It doesn't even have to be fat. Anybody who has coached guys has seen a situation where an 18 or 19 year-old guy hitting the weights and all-you-can-eat cafeteria hard can blow up with muscle and set himself up for wear and tear on the joints. When you're talking about a 6' 7" guy jumping 36" that's already a lot of impact force on long levers and adding extra (especially upper body) bulk can be bad for their shins/knees/back.
Do smart coaches ever mention weight to athletes? Nope. You code it in talk about "fitness" or "conditioning," but sometimes force is force and weight is weight and we're doing athletes a disservice by not being able to discuss one of the most basic anthropomorphic measurements.
Both rapid weight gain or weight loss can set athletes up for injury. In particular, this can be a problem for female athletes who lean out too quickly. Sure, you can measure bodyfat and do conditioning tests and whatever else... but weight is way less invasive and a reasonable proxy for what you're looking for. If an athlete is consistently waking up 5lbs less than what she started the season at, she's possibly at increased risk for injury, and as a coach, I'd like to reduce her training load until she's in a better place.
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Post by mikegarrison on Feb 11, 2023 13:49:34 GMT -5
Anybody who has coached guys has seen a situation where an 18 or 19 year-old guy hitting the weights and all-you-can-eat cafeteria hard can blow up with muscle and set himself up for wear and tear on the joints. I suppose this is true. There is currently a member of congress who had to have two knees replaced because of his volleyball playing at Baruch.
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Post by n00b on Feb 11, 2023 20:19:04 GMT -5
In my opinion, no. You could have the most positive, caring coach in the country and an athlete feel emotional distress and suicidal thoughts because she isn't in the starting lineup. We clearly disagree. Probably only on the semantics of the word "abuse". Certainly not on how coaches SHOULD treat their athletes. Do you think Butler should've been able to fire Clark for cause based on the details in this article?
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Post by staticb on Feb 11, 2023 22:40:10 GMT -5
Probably only on the semantics of the word "abuse". Certainly not on how coaches SHOULD treat their athletes. Do you think Butler should've been able to fire Clark for cause based on the details in this article? Based on this article alone, I'd say no. It sounds like she was a terrible coach, but didn't break any rules violations/immediately fireable etc. It's hard to say whether it's abuse because of the lack of speciics. That said, I'm sure she had multiple contract renewals at some point and they still chose to renew her.
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Post by foxparker on Feb 11, 2023 23:02:43 GMT -5
Hate the overuse of the word abuse. There's a difference between conflict and abuse, and conflict is already bad, so making the distinction is important. But based on the article it's hard to determine abuse, though conflict, – ethically, emotionally – sure. It all makes me think of Banwarth/Ole Miss, where we also have a paucity of real info, where Ole Miss made a quick move vs. Butler not making a move, or at least until this article. Over-inflating conflict as abuse undermines the cause of abuse survivors.
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Post by n00b on Feb 12, 2023 11:18:48 GMT -5
Probably only on the semantics of the word "abuse". Certainly not on how coaches SHOULD treat their athletes. Do you think Butler should've been able to fire Clark for cause based on the details in this article? Based on this article alone, I'd say no. It sounds like she was a terrible coach, but didn't break any rules violations/immediately fireable etc. It's hard to say whether it's abuse because of the lack of speciics. That said, I'm sure she had multiple contract renewals at some point and they still chose to renew her. I agree. But you can’t ignore the politics of “non-renewing” the contract of a black female who is the president of the AVCA and who has had ok results. Sure, some volleyball insiders would likely know the reasons, but the vast majority of people would not. Butler administration might’ve been relieved that the student newspaper published something.
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Post by Brutus Buckeye on Feb 12, 2023 13:58:38 GMT -5
A player from my HS coached there for exactly one spring session after the conclusion of her college VB career. Now she's a HS HC.
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Post by FUBAR on Feb 16, 2023 17:10:28 GMT -5
What is the appropriate way, in your view, for a coach to approach issues of fitness, conditioning and performance with an athlete or a team? By framing it as part of fitness, conditioning, and performance. Not as "you're overweight," especially with women. I agree with dizzydean on this, but framing the conversation that way doesn't mean the athlete hears it that way. I'm kinda inclined to believe that in most cases it doesn't really matter - people who are going to react badly to the conversation are going to do so regardless of how it is framed. That doesn't mean you shouldn't frame it as dizzydean suggests, just don't expect that you are insulated from the athlete reacting badly. Coaches are in a difficult position these days. Mid to high level athletes have to be encouraged to be in the best condition they can be in for their sport, but there is some chance the coach will be put through the ringer, and maybe even lose their job for doing so.
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