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Post by VolleyTX on Feb 16, 2023 17:40:15 GMT -5
I read the whole article and I don't really understand what this is about. The coach told some players that if they wanted to improve and get more playing time they should lose weight. Did they want the coach to lie to them? Coaches tell players of both genders all of the time that they could improve if they lost or gained weight. This is just silly. This isn't about their appearance but about what it will take to make them successful as athletes. Apparently different players were treated differently. Many coaches believe in very few team rules so that you can treat players as individuals and do the right thing when mistakes are made. The best coaches treat players individually because different players need different things. Phil Jackson treated Jordan differently than Rodman differently than other players. That is just the way the world works sometimes. And often perceptions of unfairness or special treatment lack a lot of context. Grow up. I guess there was some confusion about who travels to away games? Sounds abusive to me. Players are shocked that during their recruiting trip the coaches put their best foot forward? And then they went to the AD who wouldn't fire the coach due to abuse? FWIW, the numbers transferring suggest something was wrong here. Not saying it wasn't time to find a new coach. But these wacky claims of abuse suggest that one of the big problems was the athletes that were recruited. I have no idea what was going on, but FWIW, I don’t think this is a particularly well-written article in painting a coherent picture. Yes, poorly written. I felt a little lost and bored after getting to the half way point. There is absolutely no structure to the piece. Also, so many of the quotes were quite strange.... I really felt like they could have been much more descriptive of the behavior and communications of the coach.
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Post by coachdavid on Feb 16, 2023 17:47:28 GMT -5
I have no idea what was going on, but FWIW, I don’t think this is a particularly well-written article in painting a coherent picture. Yes, poorly written. I felt a little lost and bored after getting to the half way point. There is absolutely no structure to the piece. Also, so many of the quotes were quite strange.... I really felt like they could have been much more descriptive of the behavior and communications of the coach. It has 2 main problems. One is that it wanders from topic to topic without completing the previous thought, and without building a good overall structure. The bigger problem though is that the author (and it seems like some of the sources from the quotes picked) are trying to say something without actually coming out and saying what they think. "Maybe if we just imply, the reader will get the message AND we wont be on the hook for libel". So the whole article is just weak as a result.
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Post by mikegarrison on Feb 16, 2023 18:07:02 GMT -5
1) It's a college newspaper, and they are writing about the administration of the college. Of course they are going to be careful about what they say. (As they should be in an article like this.) 2) The article is pretty good, and the authors clearly went to a lot of effort to contact a lot of people. 3) Quotes are quotes -- people don't usually talk like movie scripts.
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Post by coachdavid on Feb 16, 2023 22:36:57 GMT -5
Pretty much after the fact. After, hopefully, a failed attempt rather than a death. I feel that in this day and age, all coaches should be cognizant of the psychological makeup of their team. The athletic administration should provide them with the means and assets to foster greater understanding of the mental makeup of the athletes. They have, after all, promised the families to not only teach/coach them to reach their desired goals but also to protect them while they are involved with the program. It probably won't stand up legally, which is what most people feel is the ultimate metric, but it is a promise made to the individual, it is what we do a decent humans. You can't have it both ways, you can't say I want you to play for me and also so say: I don't care what happens to you while I am responsible for your well being.
I've been recommending this book to a lot of coaches.
I think it might help you develop a more nuanced view of a complicated topic.
Thanks for the book recommendation. That poor girl. It really made me worry about all my girls even more.
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Post by bigjohn043 on Feb 17, 2023 8:54:09 GMT -5
1) It's a college newspaper, and they are writing about the administration of the college. Of course they are going to be careful about what they say. (As they should be in an article like this.) 2) The article is pretty good, and the authors clearly went to a lot of effort to contact a lot of people. 3) Quotes are quotes -- people don't usually talk like movie scripts. The problem with the article is that none of the examples of "abuse" are abuse. Maybe the coach was abusive. But they contacted a lot of people to try to tell that story and didn't get any real examples.
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Post by n00b on Feb 17, 2023 8:59:42 GMT -5
1) It's a college newspaper, and they are writing about the administration of the college. Of course they are going to be careful about what they say. (As they should be in an article like this.) 2) The article is pretty good, and the authors clearly went to a lot of effort to contact a lot of people. 3) Quotes are quotes -- people don't usually talk like movie scripts. The problem with the article is that none of the examples of "abuse" are abuse. Maybe the coach was abusive. But they contacted a lot of people to try to tell that story and didn't get any real examples. Does the article ever allege “abuse”?
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Post by VolleyTX on Feb 17, 2023 9:23:23 GMT -5
1) It's a college newspaper, and they are writing about the administration of the college. Of course they are going to be careful about what they say. (As they should be in an article like this.) 2) The article is pretty good, and the authors clearly went to a lot of effort to contact a lot of people. 3) Quotes are quotes -- people don't usually talk like movie scripts. Need I remind you about the infamous Sarah Pavan article? ; )
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Post by VolleyTX on Feb 17, 2023 9:29:05 GMT -5
In my mind, weight never needs to be discussed. The focus should be on performance. Some athletes can perform at an elite level with excess body fat. If an athlete is not performing well, you may work on conditioning and nutrition. Yes, this may result in weight loss, but telling someone that they need to lose weight in a performance review is not helpful and can lead to other issues. Agree. Eating patterns are as difficult to change as quitting smoking. They are both coping mechanisms that many people use to emotionally self soothe. Not to mention, far too often kids pick up the eating patterns of the parents... whether healthy or unhealthy. A young woman playing Division one volleyball is getting plenty of exercise. If they have excess body weight it is mostly definitely a diet issue. These topics are extremely sensitive and should NOT be left to the coach to manage. Certainly the school has a dietician or even phycologists that can help have healthy conversations with players about developing healthy eating patterns.... and helping them find alternative ways of coping with their emotions.
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Post by dizzydean on Feb 17, 2023 9:50:16 GMT -5
1) It's a college newspaper, and they are writing about the administration of the college. Of course they are going to be careful about what they say. (As they should be in an article like this.) 2) The article is pretty good, and the authors clearly went to a lot of effort to contact a lot of people. 3) Quotes are quotes -- people don't usually talk like movie scripts. There’s effort in the research but it’s not well-organized and clear.
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Post by coahc21 on Feb 17, 2023 9:51:52 GMT -5
In my mind, weight never needs to be discussed. The focus should be on performance. Some athletes can perform at an elite level with excess body fat. If an athlete is not performing well, you may work on conditioning and nutrition. Yes, this may result in weight loss, but telling someone that they need to lose weight in a performance review is not helpful and can lead to other issues. Agree. Eating patterns are as difficult to change as quitting smoking. They are both coping mechanisms that many people use to emotionally self soothe. Not to mention, far too often kids pick up the eating patterns of the parents... whether healthy or unhealthy. A young woman playing Division one volleyball is getting plenty of exercise. If they have excess body weight it is mostly definitely a diet issue. These topics are extremely sensitive and should NOT be left to the coach to manage. Certainly the school has a dietician or even phycologists that can help have healthy conversations with players about developing healthy eating patterns.... and helping them find alternative ways of coping with their emotions. It's definitely a tight rope walk -- in my experience, the opposite is usually more of the issue among female volleyball players -- not eating enough, very worried about their bodies in spandex -- to your point, talking to them about healthy eating habits as a coach could very easily push them in the other direction, very very tricky thing to navigate and should involve as many resources as the campus can offer
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Post by Phaedrus on Feb 17, 2023 11:04:49 GMT -5
1) It's a college newspaper, and they are writing about the administration of the college. Of course they are going to be careful about what they say. (As they should be in an article like this.) 2) The article is pretty good, and the authors clearly went to a lot of effort to contact a lot of people. 3) Quotes are quotes -- people don't usually talk like movie scripts. Why do people focus on the delivery rather than the story? The delivery obviously affect the quality of the reportage, but sometimes I think it is a head fake. - Fallacy fallacy-Presuming that because a claim gas been poorly argued, or a fallacy has been made, that it is necessarily wrong.
- Genetic fallacy-Judging something good or bad on the basis of where it comes from, or from whom it comes.
- Tu quoque-Avoiding having to engage with criticism by turning it back on the accuser-answering criticism with criticism.
- Personal incredulity-Saying that because one finds something difficult to understand that it's therefore not true.
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Post by VolleyTX on Feb 17, 2023 11:15:37 GMT -5
1) It's a college newspaper, and they are writing about the administration of the college. Of course they are going to be careful about what they say. (As they should be in an article like this.) 2) The article is pretty good, and the authors clearly went to a lot of effort to contact a lot of people. 3) Quotes are quotes -- people don't usually talk like movie scripts. Why do people focus on the delivery rather than the story? The delivery obviously affect the quality of the reportage, but sometimes I think it is a head fake. - Fallacy fallacy-Presuming that because a claim gas been poorly argued, or a fallacy has been made, that it is necessarily wrong.
- Genetic fallacy-Judging something good or bad on the basis of where it comes from, or from whom it comes.
- Tu quoque-Avoiding having to engage with criticism by turning it back on the accuser-answering criticism with criticism.
- Personal incredulity-Saying that because one finds something difficult to understand that it's therefore not true.
Agree. We have such a tendency to view things in such binary terms. Certain words tend to trigger people into black and white thinking. For some "Abuse" must equate to something physical or horrible name calling. Neglect is another form of abuse. It is clear from the article that Clark was not a good coach and found ways to alienate and demean her players. Good coaches understand that the most important way to get the best our of their players is by creating psychological safety and a sense of belonging.... yet we see time and again that so many coaches are not emotionally mature themselves and can not provide such a basic service to their players.
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Post by FUBAR on Feb 17, 2023 13:19:36 GMT -5
Certainly the school has a dietician or even phycologists that can help have healthy conversations with players about developing healthy eating patterns.... and helping them find alternative ways of coping with their emotions. Most NCAA athletic programs do not have these positions. Certainly Your Nebraska, Alabama, Syracuse, and UCLA type programs will have those positions. But the Colorado St., Villanova, South Florida, and Fresno St.'s of the world will be pretty hit and miss to have those positions. Few programs below that level will have those positions. In the vast majority of programs it falls on the coaches, athletic trainers & strength staff to have those conversations.
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Post by vbman100 on Feb 17, 2023 20:04:56 GMT -5
1) It's a college newspaper, and they are writing about the administration of the college. Of course they are going to be careful about what they say. (As they should be in an article like this.) 2) The article is pretty good, and the authors clearly went to a lot of effort to contact a lot of people. 3) Quotes are quotes -- people don't usually talk like movie scripts. Why do people focus on the delivery rather than the story? The delivery obviously affect the quality of the reportage, but sometimes I think it is a head fake. What did you specifically get from the story? That’s what I have the problem with. Very few specifics. In the discussion of turnover of players and coaches (revolving door) there is specific percentages/numbers of players leaving compared to the NCAA. Ok good. But then 9 assistants in 9 years. In that conference, is that about average, a lot, or low? Nothing They are not successful because of so much turnover says one of the players. True. But what does that have to do with Clark? Player says people left because Clark ruined it for them. Ok. But nothing specific. Just that they lost the love of the game. Then in The Standard, the line moved for different players. What specifically? Nothing. Stats to determine playing time? Breaking team rules? What standards are they referencing? Players saying they were treated poorly or saw others treated poorly. What specifically? Nothing. Effort? Appearance? What words did Clark say to someone? Nothing. Athlete appearance Weight was brought up but it was treated as a joke. What does that mean? What specifically was said? Then there is specifics about to play more and improve Clark said lose weight. Ok got that. Not good. Finally specific. You shouldn’t have to ask Ok, now more specifics. Good. Poor communication from Clark absolutely. Did this happen every year? Was it related to Covid at all? Did this get better with communication ever? Why doesn’t everyone travel? Nothing. The thing about scheduled practices and no one being there is really weird. But given one sentence. Very unusual and unprofessional for sure. Team/business/person Players quoted as not feeling safe. Why? Being watched always. Why? How? Not comfortable. On edge. Why? How? Nothing Then the overarching idea of going to administration and nothing changing. Conversations may have been had numerous times between Clark and administrators, and she just didn’t change. Short of firing her, how can they prove they talked to Clark? Players won’t know. So now she’s gone. Did Butler finally do the right thing? Sounds like it. So they finally listened and did something about it. Sorry it didn’t happen in 2017, or 2020, but now they did.
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