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Post by aardvark on Jun 14, 2024 6:51:41 GMT -5
People (like AmericanVBFan) who try to gas light what's happened with the attack on our institutions, what happened Jan 6 and what a 2nd Trump term would be like is unacceptable and they should be called out for it. To your point, there are tens of millions of intelligent Americans who have no idea how close we came on Jan 6 nor how close we are NOW in becoming a nation ruled by a deranged fascist. 30 or 40 of Trump's former cabinet members have come out publicly to say he's not fit for office. What are you doing about it? You are criticizing him. You are already aware he's not a maga zealot. What do you expect your criticism to achieve? It's probably not going to move his political alignment closer to yours. I realize your frustration, but it's not good enough to just be right here. You have to be right *and* convince others of it. That's not going to happen if you're hitting your audience with a stick.
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Post by aardvark on Jun 14, 2024 6:54:39 GMT -5
I think it's a mistake to think GOP voters are being fooled by right wing media or Donald Trump. I think it's far more likely they just agree with Republicans and want Trump to be president because they want the same things he does. Oh? What same things? Be specific. I think there's a huge difference between what Trump wants and what the average MAGA cap wearing attendee to one of his rallies wants.
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Post by aardvark on Jun 14, 2024 7:29:03 GMT -5
Conservatives normally try to get their news from right-wing sources, because it will easily sync with their already established world views. If you are aware of how biased Faux is, then you should understand why his knowledge base might be a little skewed. Do you not think that Liberals do the same where outlets like MSNBC or CNN is concerned? Did MSNBC or CNN pick up a $787 million dollar court judgment for knowingly lying to their audience? That's just the tip of the iceberg. Faux has made a business model decision to spew out right-wing propaganda. This model has catapulted them from a minor player in the news arena into something resembling market leadership. This past success has cemented in their heads that they are doing what is best for them. CNN and MSNBC are older media entities that still adhere to the journalistic mindset of trying to present the news in a balanced manner. The problem is that the Republican party has continued to lurch ever right-ward over time. Usually, a party that gets this far away from the center gets thoroughly beaten at the ballot box, and this causes a course correction. That hasn't happened with the GOP because they've developed their own media and have made efforts to encase as many people as possible into their groupthink. Thus, a large portion of the voters just drift ever right-ward along with them. As they have drifted that way, the factual support for their belief system has dwindled. This puts mainstream media in a bind. They want to present a balanced view, but one side is off-the-wall crazy. Think about it. The Republican party has committed itself to a 34-count felon who has tried to stage a coup. If you are genuinely interested in questioning the "equivalence" of conservative versus liberal media outlets, you have to write down what standards you think are desired, and then check to see if those standards are being followed. Standards examples could be two or more independent sources for a story, listing the facts without telling you what to think, or how the story is presented (contrary facts at bottom of text, or subject being discussed on TV among only right-wing pundits). I have said it before: for a quickie look at this concept, just compare MSNBC and Faux online. Look at what stories they show and how they show them. If you see a big difference between the two in presentation, then ask yourself why.
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Post by mikegarrison on Jun 14, 2024 8:16:27 GMT -5
CNN and MSNBC are older media entities that still adhere to the journalistic mindset of trying to present the news in a balanced manner. Not really. At least, not MSNBC. MSNBC is the political, non-balanced sister to NBC News. It was originally a joint attempt to provide an online news outlet that was co-owned by Microsoft and NBC (thus the name). However, they started specializing more in political news and opinion, featuring hosts like Tucker Carlson, Alan Keyes, and Pat Buchanan. NBC eventually bought out Microsoft's ownership stake. After hiring Keith Olbermann, they started seeing their ratings go up the more they drifted leftward, so they ended up moving farther and farther left. Meanwhile Fox was specializing in the right-wing stuff. So MSNBC and Fox are sort of political mirrors of each other, but MSNBC does seem to have far less of a history of being caught in outright lies and falsehoods than Fox.
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Post by mervinswerved on Jun 14, 2024 8:18:40 GMT -5
I think it's a mistake to think GOP voters are being fooled by right wing media or Donald Trump. I think it's far more likely they just agree with Republicans and want Trump to be president because they want the same things he does. Oh? What same things? Be specific. I think there's a huge difference between what Trump wants and what the average MAGA cap wearing attendee to one of his rallies wants. Brutalization of migrants, a society more hostile to gay and trans people, tax cuts, a belligerent posture towards the rest of the world, the owning of the libs. These are all very standard republican things. Hell, even the antidemocratic seizure of power has been GOP orthodoxy since 2000.
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Post by AmeriCanVBfan on Jun 14, 2024 9:00:14 GMT -5
Do you not think that Liberals do the same where outlets like MSNBC or CNN is concerned? Did MSNBC or CNN pick up a $787 million dollar court judgment for knowingly lying to their audience? That's just the tip of the iceberg. Faux has made a business model decision to spew out right-wing propaganda. This model has catapulted them from a minor player in the news arena into something resembling market leadership. This past success has cemented in their heads that they are doing what is best for them. CNN and MSNBC are older media entities that still adhere to the journalistic mindset of trying to present the news in a balanced manner. The problem is that the Republican party has continued to lurch ever right-ward over time. Usually, a party that gets this far away from the center gets thoroughly beaten at the ballot box, and this causes a course correction. That hasn't happened with the GOP because they've developed their own media and have made efforts to encase as many people as possible into their groupthink. Thus, a large portion of the voters just drift ever right-ward along with them. As they have drifted that way, the factual support for their belief system has dwindled. This puts mainstream media in a bind. They want to present a balanced view, but one side is off-the-wall crazy. Think about it. The Republican party has committed itself to a 34-count felon who has tried to stage a coup. If you are genuinely interested in questioning the "equivalence" of conservative versus liberal media outlets, you have to write down what standards you think are desired, and then check to see if those standards are being followed. Standards examples could be two or more independent sources for a story, listing the facts without telling you what to think, or how the story is presented (contrary facts at bottom of text, or subject being discussed on TV among only right-wing pundits). I have said it before: for a quickie look at this concept, just compare MSNBC and Faux online. Look at what stories they show and how they show them. If you see a big difference between the two in presentation, then ask yourself why. Your reply did not address my question. Previously, you said that conservatives look to news sources that present a conservative view (Fox being the biggest example of that) and I questioned whether liberals do the same by tuning in to MSNBC or CNN. Your take on CNN and especially MSNBC being balanced in their reporting might be a little off (as mike pointed out with MSNBC). Again, look to the internal struggles CNN has had in terms of deciding whether or not to continue with their narrative or actually be more "balanced". BUT all of that is neither here nor there as it wasn't what my original question was about.
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Post by aardvark on Jun 14, 2024 10:24:38 GMT -5
]Your reply did not address my question. Previously, you said that conservatives look to news sources that present a conservative view (Fox being the biggest example of that) and I questioned whether liberals do the same by tuning in to MSNBC or CNN. Your take on CNN and especially MSNBC being balanced in their reporting might be a little off (as mike pointed out with MSNBC). Again, look to the internal struggles CNN has had in terms of deciding whether or not to continue with their narrative or actually be more "balanced". BUT all of that is neither here nor there as it wasn't what my original question was about. Yes. Humans naturally seek out and give preference to news sources that agree with their world-view. Who wants to have to face that the ideology they had up to any given moment is false? Nobody. The question is: do the media sources take advantage of this instinct and ply the customer with falsehoods? Or are they presenting facts? I would agree that MSNBC does show favoritism for the liberal/Dem view. Unlike Faux, this bias is not so great they have discarded their journalistic integrity and intentionally trotted out stuff that wasn't true. So maybe the term I should have used was "honest" instead of balanced? Most of the rightwing media has fallen pretty far down the rabbit hole, because Trump has pushed them to do so. To stay in good graces with their political leader, they must promulgate the lie that the 2020 election was rigged and that January 6th was merely a minor riot, not a coup. As a result, Trump now stands on the precipice of getting elected again. He's close. He can get there. He, and his backers, have learned from their first go around. Sadly, the lesson they seem to have learned is that they didn't go far enough. That's why they are preparing to flood the government with MAGA supporters, so that there is far less systemic resistance to Trump impropriety. It is clear that much of his interest in returning to office is to make the three remaining indictments against him go away. Yes, even the state one, with the help of a GOP controlled Congress. Trump does not want to go to jail, especially not for a serious crime like insurrection, as that may well be a one way street for him. That being the case, he's motivated to do virtually anything to avoid that fate. This makes him more dangerous than ever before. It's no longer a battle for vanity. It's a battle for survival. And the media entities that support him don't seem to have a red line of what behavior can't be allowed. If a coup is permissible, everything is in play.
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Post by aardvark on Jun 14, 2024 10:46:38 GMT -5
Oh? What same things? Be specific. I think there's a huge difference between what Trump wants and what the average MAGA cap wearing attendee to one of his rallies wants. Brutalization of migrants, a society more hostile to gay and trans people, tax cuts, a belligerent posture towards the rest of the world, the owning of the libs. These are all very standard republican things. Hell, even the antidemocratic seizure of power has been GOP orthodoxy since 2000. Your answer is a fail. I don't believe Trump wants any of those things. He wants adulation, fame, unbridled power, and as much money as he can get his hands upon. He is a racist and misogynist, but I doubt that he looks upon such others with a lustful eye of suppression so much as he wants them to serve him in his kingly robes. Trump is smart enough to know that he needs co-conspirators to get what he wants. He offers the transaction of providing benefits to favored groups in return for their allegiance in getting what he really wants for himself. How much each group gets will depend on how similar they are to Trump and how much he feels he needs them. Blue color workers with minimal education will stand near the back of the line. They should start practicing bending over now. Of course, they think they're gonna get a lot, because Trump's media supporters know how to get the common man riled up over things that don't need much money to "fix". That would include immigration (just build a wall!), gays/trans (suppress sin!), and abortion. While these "fixes" are noisily played out to distract, they will quietly behind the scenes consolidate power and stuff as much money as they can into their pockets. Trump can't afford losing the Presidency won't he attains it, as that would translate to jail. Everyone else should understand the consequences, like he already does.
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Post by mervinswerved on Jun 14, 2024 11:04:55 GMT -5
Brutalization of migrants, a society more hostile to gay and trans people, tax cuts, a belligerent posture towards the rest of the world, the owning of the libs. These are all very standard republican things. Hell, even the antidemocratic seizure of power has been GOP orthodoxy since 2000. Your answer is a fail. I don't believe Trump wants any of those things. He wants adulation, fame, unbridled power, and as much money as he can get his hands upon. He is a racist and misogynist, but I doubt that he looks upon such others with a lustful eye of suppression so much as he wants them to serve him in his kingly robes. Trump is smart enough to know that he needs co-conspirators to get what he wants. He offers the transaction of providing benefits to favored groups in return for their allegiance in getting what he really wants for himself. How much each group gets will depend on how similar they are to Trump and how much he feels he needs them. Blue color workers with minimal education will stand near the back of the line. They should start practicing bending over now. Of course, they think they're gonna get a lot, because Trump's media supporters know how to get the common man riled up over things that don't need much money to "fix". That would include immigration (just build a wall!), gays/trans (suppress sin!), and abortion. While these "fixes" are noisily played out to distract, they will quietly behind the scenes consolidate power and stuff as much money as they can into their pockets. Trump can't afford losing the Presidency won't he attains it, as that would translate to jail. Everyone else should understand the consequences, like he already does. None of that contradicts what I said here: I think it's a mistake to think GOP voters are being fooled by right wing media or Donald Trump. I think it's far more likely they just agree with Republicans and want Trump to be president because they want the same things he does.
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Post by AmeriCanVBfan on Jun 14, 2024 11:39:46 GMT -5
]Your reply did not address my question. Previously, you said that conservatives look to news sources that present a conservative view (Fox being the biggest example of that) and I questioned whether liberals do the same by tuning in to MSNBC or CNN. Your take on CNN and especially MSNBC being balanced in their reporting might be a little off (as mike pointed out with MSNBC). Again, look to the internal struggles CNN has had in terms of deciding whether or not to continue with their narrative or actually be more "balanced". BUT all of that is neither here nor there as it wasn't what my original question was about. Yes. Humans naturally seek out and give preference to news sources that agree with their world-view. Who wants to have to face that the ideology they had up to any given moment is false? Nobody. The question is: do the media sources take advantage of this instinct and ply the customer with falsehoods? Or are they presenting facts? I would agree that MSNBC does show favoritism for the liberal/Dem view. Unlike Faux, this bias is not so great they have discarded their journalistic integrity and intentionally trotted out stuff that wasn't true. So maybe the term I should have used was "honest" instead of balanced? Most of the rightwing media has fallen pretty far down the rabbit hole, because Trump has pushed them to do so. To stay in good graces with their political leader, they must promulgate the lie that the 2020 election was rigged and that January 6th was merely a minor riot, not a coup. As a result, Trump now stands on the precipice of getting elected again. He's close. He can get there. He, and his backers, have learned from their first go around. Sadly, the lesson they seem to have learned is that they didn't go far enough. That's why they are preparing to flood the government with MAGA supporters, so that there is far less systemic resistance to Trump impropriety. It is clear that much of his interest in returning to office is to make the three remaining indictments against him go away. Yes, even the state one, with the help of a GOP controlled Congress. Trump does not want to go to jail, especially not for a serious crime like insurrection, as that may well be a one way street for him. That being the case, he's motivated to do virtually anything to avoid that fate. This makes him more dangerous than ever before. It's no longer a battle for vanity. It's a battle for survival. And the media entities that support him don't seem to have a red line of what behavior can't be allowed. If a coup is permissible, everything is in play. I don't see rightwing media being much different than they were pre-Trump but I could be wrong. They don't seem to be pushing a message any different than Rush Limbaugh did back in the day. I find this statement a little odd. I'm pretty sure that even if there were no indictments, he was pretty intent on getting re-elected. I do wonder, however, if he had showed no desire for office again, if he would be in the same legal morass that he is now.
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Post by HOLIDAY on Jun 14, 2024 20:05:22 GMT -5
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Post by jsquare on Jun 14, 2024 21:30:20 GMT -5
What exactly was Trump talking about with sharks and batteries?
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Post by mikegarrison on Jun 15, 2024 3:05:17 GMT -5
Your answer is a fail. I don't believe Trump wants any of those things. He wants adulation, fame, unbridled power, and as much money as he can get his hands upon. He is a racist and misogynist, but I doubt that he looks upon such others with a lustful eye of suppression so much as he wants them to serve him in his kingly robes. Trump is smart enough to know that he needs co-conspirators to get what he wants. He offers the transaction of providing benefits to favored groups in return for their allegiance in getting what he really wants for himself. How much each group gets will depend on how similar they are to Trump and how much he feels he needs them. Blue color workers with minimal education will stand near the back of the line. They should start practicing bending over now. Of course, they think they're gonna get a lot, because Trump's media supporters know how to get the common man riled up over things that don't need much money to "fix". That would include immigration (just build a wall!), gays/trans (suppress sin!), and abortion. While these "fixes" are noisily played out to distract, they will quietly behind the scenes consolidate power and stuff as much money as they can into their pockets. Trump can't afford losing the Presidency won't he attains it, as that would translate to jail. Everyone else should understand the consequences, like he already does. None of that contradicts what I said here: I think it's a mistake to think GOP voters are being fooled by right wing media or Donald Trump. I think it's far more likely they just agree with Republicans and want Trump to be president because they want the same things he does. I said it elsewhere, but Trump is popular because he tells people like Holiday what they want to hear. I'm not at all sure Trump tells them what he actually believes (and in some cases am 100% sure he does not), but effectively people like Holiday follow Trump because they like what he says, not because someone somehow fooled them into liking it. Whether Trump himself is fooling them, that's a different issue.
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Post by HOLIDAY on Jun 15, 2024 19:42:38 GMT -5
None of that contradicts what I said here: I said it elsewhere, but Trump is popular because he tells people like Holiday what they want to hear. I'm not at all sure Trump tells them what he actually believes (and in some cases am 100% sure he does not), but effectively people like Holiday follow Trump because they like what he says, not because someone somehow fooled them into liking it. Whether Trump himself is fooling them, that's a different issue. Do you know what amazes me Mike? That you still don’t have a clue of why people like Donald Trump. In fact, in your liberal Democrat mind you search for something that fits your agenda when that is not the case. Bottom line is Donald Trump’s policies have worked much better than Joe Biden’s. And he managed to keep people flush with cash and feeling like they were living the American dream. No one feels that way under Joe Biden. It’s pretty simple Mike, even for a simpleton that went to MIT.
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Post by geddyleeridesagain on Jun 15, 2024 19:47:47 GMT -5
I said it elsewhere, but Trump is popular because he tells people like Holiday what they want to hear. I'm not at all sure Trump tells them what he actually believes (and in some cases am 100% sure he does not), but effectively people like Holiday follow Trump because they like what he says, not because someone somehow fooled them into liking it. Whether Trump himself is fooling them, that's a different issue. Do you know what amazes me Mike? That you still don’t have a clue of why people like Donald Trump. In fact, in your liberal Democrat mind you search for something that fits your agenda when that is not the case. Bottom line is Donald Trump’s policies have worked much better than Joe Biden’s. And he managed to keep people flush with cash and feeling like they were living the American dream. No one feels that way under Joe Biden. It’s pretty simple Mike, even for a simpleton that went to MIT. Oh, I know exactly what attracts a significant subset of Americans to Donald Trump. But you're not gonna like the answer...
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