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Post by azvb on Oct 7, 2006 20:47:05 GMT -5
I don't have facts to back this up, but I dare say she has officiated as many, if not more, final 4's than any other official. In order to get to that point, you need to be promoted by college coaches and not simply other officials who are part of "the club". I would say, given the choice, most DI coaches are going to ask for Joan Powell and a handful of others to be on the stand for the big match. On top of it, she is one of the nicest and most sincere people you will ever meet. She takes her officiating very seriously and without prejudice. I'll take Joan on my court for any of my college matches. Totally agree with you. Take a poll among college coaches and her name will be at or near the top.
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Post by The Bofa on the Sofa on Oct 7, 2006 20:49:23 GMT -5
Whether you like the level of BHE she calls or not, I've yet to see a match where she was inconsistant in her level of calls. I've seen her quite a few times. See Ohio St at Purdue, last Friday. She went from loose at the beginning of game 1, got tight for the rest of game 1 and all of game 2, then in game 3, it got completely out of control loose. See again, Ohio St at Purdue. When she called two carries on Main dumps. Beth Mullins didn't even know why she called the violation. She did the same thing last year against Purdue. She called Dargan for a back row block on a play where Renata was actually ducking to get out of the way of the attack (Powell's claim that by being near a blocker, Dargan was actually part of the block, despite the fact that she was ducking out of the way). These calls were pure power trips by Powell trying to show the coaches that she was in charge of the match.
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Post by GatorVball on Oct 7, 2006 21:00:22 GMT -5
If you think Joan Powell is the worst or among the worst out there, you clearly haven't seen many volleyball matches. Come down to SEC country and see some of the worst officials ever. You'd be praying for Joan Powell after you saw them. And the SEC officials don't just suck in volleyball, it's every sport.
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Post by Gorf on Oct 7, 2006 21:13:25 GMT -5
She did the same thing last year against Purdue. She called Dargan for a back row block on a play where Renata was actually ducking to get out of the way of the attack (Powell's claim that by being near a blocker, Dargan was actually part of the block, despite the fact that she was ducking out of the way). That's the rule, it doesn't matter if she is ducking, it doesn't matter if no part of her is above the height of the net.
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Post by simplycurious on Oct 7, 2006 21:15:51 GMT -5
I'm going to have to disagree with you here p-dub. Any time you use Beth Mullins' knowledge of volleyball as the benchmark from which you base your argument, you're going to lose (at least in my book). I'm sorry, but that's just a weak basis for argument since she's a basketball person who is commentating on volleyball. To ohiostatetad and other members of the 'angry mob' headed towards Joan's domicle with their torches and pitchforks, why the hostility? What specifically angered you so much that you felt the need to start a thread about Joan?
Me, I'm going to side with JustInCase because my personal experiences with Joan have always been positive and I can definitely think of several other officials (just off the top of my head) who make me cringe when I see them walk into our gym. Also, 2c brought up a nice point regarding the 'invisible officials'. In fact, there was an article written maybe ten years ago (for Coaching Volleyball?) that was about officiating and mentioned "the average fan rule". Basically it said that if the average volleyball fan couldn't tell why the official made the call, then they shouldn't. Again, my experiences with Joan haven't produced many of these types of calls, so I echo what (R)uffda! and 2c stated that while no official is perfect, there are many that are far more inconsistant then Joan (IMHO).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2006 21:57:25 GMT -5
First of all, to answer simplycurious's question, OSU fans have been griping about Joan since the Buckeyes lost in the regional here. I was there, and most of the calls they (and Ami Stevens) were complaining about were best made by the refs and not the OSU parents. Fancy that. She did the same thing last year against Purdue. She called Dargan for a back row block on a play where Renata was actually ducking to get out of the way of the attack (Powell's claim that by being near a blocker, Dargan was actually part of the block, despite the fact that she was ducking out of the way). That's the rule, it doesn't matter if she is ducking, it doesn't matter if no part of her is above the height of the net. That's not the rule, actually. Depends on where Dargan was. And, if indeed this was the call (which I have a hard time believing), it would have been an extremely picky call to make. I still believe there is more to this than p-dub knows. Then again, maybe she just made a bad call. It happens. There's no reason for a top-notch ref to be crucified here for a few bad calls. The "power trip" comment also strikes me as off-base...
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Post by bunnywailer on Oct 7, 2006 23:11:42 GMT -5
Good clinician too. Some of the best drills my wife uses come from Joan. Oh, heck yeah. If you write down everything she ever says in a clinic and nod your head and follow along blindly (and drink her kool-aid), she's the best clinician ever! If you have your own opinion about volleyball, then it's a completely different story. There is no magic in drills. The magic comes in coaching philosophy, approach, and feedback. There's a thousand drills to teach passing and a thousand others to teach transition, any one of them can work wonders in a thousand different situations. "Best drills...my wife uses them all the time". Why not tell your wife the coach to come up with some equally effective drills on her own?
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Post by bunnywailer on Oct 7, 2006 23:16:22 GMT -5
Joan Powell is okay as a ref. She has all the protocol, mechanics, and associated stuff they teach you in the manual and case book down pat.
She has a tendency to be too rigid on the stand. Makes questionable judgement calls seemingly at the worst times in critical matches (hey...all refs bone up judgement calls every now and then...but for some reason Joan is one of those that seems to do hers at the absolute worst times in a match...).
She's a nice enough person, but when it comes to coaching clinics and reffing, if she thinks you're beneath her on the volleyball food chain, she tends to look down her nose at you.
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Post by Gorf on Oct 7, 2006 23:20:51 GMT -5
I've never seen her behave like that at clinics.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2006 0:24:34 GMT -5
Good clinician too. Some of the best drills my wife uses come from Joan. Oh, heck yeah. If you write down everything she ever says in a clinic and nod your head and follow along blindly (and drink her kool-aid), she's the best clinician ever! Did I say there was magic in drills? I said she had some good drills. WTF is your problem? Better yet, why not NOT make any assumptions about my wife and her coaching abilities?
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Post by bunnywailer on Oct 8, 2006 3:18:35 GMT -5
WTF is your problem? Better yet, why not NOT make any assumptions about my wife and her coaching abilities? Whoa, easy there, tiger. Didn't realize you were so overprotective of Gorf.
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Post by Gorf on Oct 8, 2006 3:37:09 GMT -5
First of all, to answer simplycurious's question, OSU fans have been griping about Joan since the Buckeyes lost in the regional here. I was there, and most of the calls they (and Ami Stevens) were complaining about were best made by the refs and not the OSU parents. Fancy that. That's the rule, it doesn't matter if she is ducking, it doesn't matter if no part of her is above the height of the net. That's not the rule, actually. Depends on where Dargan was. And, if indeed this was the call (which I have a hard time believing), it would have been an extremely picky call to make. I still believe there is more to this than p-dub knows. Then again, maybe she just made a bad call. It happens. There's no reason for a top-notch ref to be crucified here for a few bad calls. The "power trip" comment also strikes me as off-base... "A collective block is executed by two or three players close to each other and is completed when one of them touches the ball." That is how the rules used to define a collective block and the clrifications / interpretations used to specifically mention the situation that p-dub describes as being as resulting in a back row blocker fault. This years rules describe a collective block as: "A collective block is one executed by more than one blocker in close proximity. It is completed when one of the players touches the ball. It is a blocking fault if a back-row player or libero participates in a completed collective block." The wording changed from "two or three players in close proximity" to "more than one blocker in close proximity". There no longer appears to be a clarification / interpretation even in the first 2006 interpretation newsletter. As for Joan's calls and non-calls. From my perspective she doesn't call a double contact based on spin (as mentioned by someone else earlier this is as specified in the rules) which means that if the position of a player's hands prevents her from seeing an actual double contact taking place she won't call it because she couldn't see it. If the same double contact happened when she had a clear view of the attempt to play the ball then it would most likely be called. The calling or not calling of a double contact in those two situations is not inconsistent since a referee is only supposed to call what they actually see. Coaches, players, fans can moan and groan all they want, however, they have a very different viewpoint of the contacts than the referee. Fans from all over the arena, including those that are in the nosebleed sections see spin on a ball and groan about a double contact not being called. Spin has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a double contact has happened. It would be interesting if all players and coaches actually had to read the rules and be tested on them before the season started. Heck, give all fans a test on the rules too.
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Post by cardfan15 on Oct 8, 2006 5:49:40 GMT -5
This always cracks me up in NCAA matches. I see many more international matches than college matches, and in the international game there are some insanely ugly sets made...especially by middle blockers. They come off the hands with so much spin, particularly when the player must set the ball a great distance. It is never called for double contact because the ball is not contacted twice. Is it ugly yes, but not a double contact.
This has nothing to do with Joan Powell, I just always get a good laugh when you hear the collective moan from crowds at NCAA matches and the uneducated fan who plays rec sand volleyball screaming at the ref...
One other thing that was mentioned before that should be emphasized...the up ref is interpreting the game from her/his vantage point, which is completely unique in the arena/gym. Sometimes they make bad calls, other times just SEE a certain action differently than anyone else in the arena and there is nothing a fan can do about it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2006 6:23:42 GMT -5
I know the rule, Gorf. And I stick by my original post. At some point, a ref has to understand the intent of the rule...
I'll give you an example, which may or may not have been what happened in the example p-dub cites.
There's an overpass by Team A. Team A's MB goes up to play the overpass before it reaches Team B and/or to block Team B's attack of the overpass. Team A's backrow setter is standing behind the MB. Team B attacks the overpass past the MB and hits the Team A's ducking setter.
Any ref that calls that a backrow blocker has missed the intent of the rule and is a couple of years ahead of a rules clarification with the purpose of making sure no one makes a stupid call like that again.
But, as I said, this would depend on where that setter is and what she is doing. I could see this call made in many circumstances, and it being the correct call.
But not if the setter is _behind_ the MB and ducking...
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Post by Gorf on Oct 8, 2006 10:03:44 GMT -5
The rules that more commonly come into play for a back row blccker fault on the setter are when the setter is attempting to set a ball that is in the plain of the net and it gets attacked or blocked back into the setter or when the setter sets the ball that gets attacked by a teammate and is quickly blocked back into the setter when some part of the setter is still above the height of the net.
A typcial scenario for calling what p-dub describes is when a setter gets to the net (has her hands up ready to set the ball) a teammate makes an overpass, one (or more) of the setter's front row teammates attempt to block the ball when it is attacked by an opponent.
The contact for the blocking attempt actually happens before the setter had a chance to react (in p-dub's case to duck) and the referee makes a valid back row blocker call.
The referee sees the setter near the net along with one or more blockers contacting the ball while the fans and coaches more often than not see the aftermath of the play where the seter has ducked.
Those situtations (along with many / most plays at the net) happen very quickly and without seeing a replay of it we don't know how close Dargan was to the blockers, we don't know if she actually ducked prior to any block attempt by her teammates, we don't know exactly what happened at the time of contact.
Plus, the clarification used to specicially state that only one of the players had to be over the height of the net at the time of contact for it to be a collective block (whether it is a legal block or not) and ducking out of the way wasn't something that impacts the call.
OTOH: I probably ought to have said in my original response that it could very well have been a perfectly valid call rather than saying simply saying "that's the rule".
I wonder if there is an online video of that match from last year somewhere.
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