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Post by Mix Breed-TEXAS,HI,LBSU on Nov 1, 2006 13:56:43 GMT -5
As soon as Kanoe Kamana'o and Courtney Thompson graduates this year, they need to get them going for 2008. These two are the national teams best chances now, consider Nellie Spicer gets even better when the time comes or Angie from Florida.
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Post by sIsam on Nov 1, 2006 14:03:15 GMT -5
I do agree that more practice time helps. Maybe some of the international folks can tell us if our girls are practicing less than the US girls. a very early age she wouldn't be a better passer/defender today? Until you get to the elite level, the practice time is not very different for many club's junior programs in Europe than it is in the US. I know this to be true at least for Turkey and the programs that I am very familiar with here are those who produce the top players in Turkey. It is just that priorities are different for these programs since they need a totally different kind of player to be successful at the next level. I know many clubs who don't even use a libero in pre-youth and youth teams to force other players to play all around. When I say the elite level, that is usually around 18-19 years old(and in exceptional cases as young as 15), therefore when compared to the US, before talking NCAA and its ruleset, we need to be looking into club system in younger levels and what could be different there.
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Post by VBCOACH on Nov 1, 2006 14:05:05 GMT -5
So you are saying that these kids _could_ be taught to pass. But the coaching is poor? Or the rules make the coaches lazy? No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is: Passing can only be learned if it is taught. It's not that the coaching is necessarily poor, it's just that the club coaches simply don't teach it to all of the players. It that because of the rules? For the most part, I think yes.
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Post by D. B. Cooper on Nov 1, 2006 14:11:08 GMT -5
Look at Gymnastics and Figure Skating. USA athletes are fixtures on the Olympic medal stand. Why? I'll tell you why. Those are INDIVIDUAL sports. That's why. When it comes to the Olympics, folks in the USA don't care about team sports. Really we don't. Basketball sucks. Soccer sucks. Softball was good but that's no longer an Olympic sport. It's about the individual. It's also why I think you are starting to see a shift away from the indoor game to the beach game. It's not an individual sport but it's pretty darn close being only 2. Why waste time trying to make the National Team? I don't see the National Team on NBC. I don't see the National Team doing commercials for VISA, Gatorade, etc. And don't blame college & club. It's not their place to do the job of the USAV. Put the blame where it belongs. Maybe then some heads would roll. They sure could use it.
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Post by foreignball on Nov 1, 2006 14:21:58 GMT -5
If one wants to compare EUR and US development systems he/she has to have a few things in mind (I’ll use business approach again): - In most EUR countries JR VBC are subsidiaries of senior pro-clubs and are fully funded by them. Parents DO NOT have to pay anything for having their kids trained. At early ages coaches always begin with a higher number of kids because they know some will quit later and actually the competition at that age is so-so. I believe this answers the question what is going to happen if a coach asks 12 yo girls to pass for 2 hrs (from both parents and girls point of view). - Junior coaches over there think a little bit differently compared to their US counterparts. Why? Simply because they have different business goals: the JR club coaches in the US think from the stand point whether a kid can get a ride to a college and most of times which is the easiest way to achieve that (to lower the “product” cost). The EUR coaches think whether a kid can become a good pro-player and what actions they have to take in order to make it (their pays, bonuses, promotions, etc. come from the “mother” club so the number of JR players ready to step on the pro-court determines how these coaches fare). Another fact: it is a common practice in signing up pro-contracts a certain amount of the contract/transfer money (normally in the range of 5-10%) goes for the JR coach who has developed the player in question. So in reference to the above example what an ITA JR coach would do with a player like Ogonna: he/she would spend as many hours as it takes to teach her. The 2nd scenario (player riding the bench/quitting) is also possible though – it all depends on whether the kid has potential or not and worth the time and efforts involved.
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Post by Mix Breed-TEXAS,HI,LBSU on Nov 1, 2006 14:23:47 GMT -5
Klineman and Barboza will be alternatives for Beijing probably starters.
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Post by Gorf on Nov 1, 2006 14:29:01 GMT -5
So you are saying that these kids _could_ be taught to pass. But the coaching is poor? Or the rules make the coaches lazy? No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is: Passing can only be learned if it is taught. It's not that the coaching is necessarily poor, it's just that the club coaches simply don't teach it to all of the players. It that because of the rules? For the most part, I think yes. What rules are used for USAV club matches now? It used to be the USAV rules and the subtitution limiations were different for "open" clubs which had limits that are equivalent to the FIVB rules and the non-"open" which were equivalent to being more along the lines of the collegiate substitution rules. When I look at the USAV rules now the substitution rules appear to be identical to the FIVB fules. Adding the libero (which in effect increases the number of substitutions) to me is counter intuitive that the rules are the / a cause for coaches not teaching defense to all players equally. Do you see a decline in the defensive abilities in FIVB matches since the addition of the libero? If that's the case is it a sign that the FIVB is tending towards requiring fewer all around players? If that's not the case is it a sign that the rules don't have the impact on training that you believe? As for US collegiate rules: Is it worth changing the subsitution rules and providing less playing time / playing opportunities for thousands of athletes in order to get a extra relative handful "all around" rounded players to be available for the national team?
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Post by D. B. Cooper on Nov 1, 2006 14:31:01 GMT -5
Klineman and Barboza will be alternatives for Beijing probably starters. And that's another problem, since it seems that the team is already picked for 2008 & 2012 are you really surprised people don't care? Since the USAV has their chosen ones all picked out by age 15 doesn't make much sense for everyone else to be real concerned about developing skills to compete on the international level.
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Post by VBCOACH on Nov 1, 2006 14:32:27 GMT -5
You are also implying that the exceptional players of that time, long, long ago were representative of the players as a whole. I don't buy it. No, that's not what I'm implying. I never said anything about exceptional players in my post. I said that ALL players (including middles) were taught the entire game. Of course, there is such a thing as athletic ability and work ethic. So, yes, not every player in a club will have equal passing ability even though they are all taught how to pass. This holds true for serving, blocking, hitting as well. And because of this, not every club player is good enough to play at a top D-1 school. Some play at lower level D-I schools, or at D-II or D-III schools. So weather or not all of the club players that are taught to pass can pass at the International level is not the issue. The issue is that all club players should develop all of their volleyball skills as far as their natural ability and desire can take them. Then they will all be better players at whatever level they end up playing at. But also, the better players, the ones with National Team potiential, will be able to pass, as once was the case.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2006 15:18:38 GMT -5
Here's the deal. Team USA has decided to go with big hitters over more well-rounded players. That was their choice and had nothing to do with the ruleset being used. You can argue about whether this was the right choice, but I do not think that it is true the well-rounded players no longer exist. (And, of course, some of those players are not interested in playing for the NT. And you haven't convinced me you aren't simply pining for the fjords of old. )
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2006 15:21:52 GMT -5
As soon as Kanoe Kamana'o and Courtney Thompson graduates this year, they need to get them going for 2008. These two are the national teams best chances now, consider Nellie Spicer gets even better when the time comes or Angie from Florida. And because I love incurring the wrath of fakabedit: This is another thing we hear all the time. So-and-so, once they graduate, will be the savior. The distance between DI -- even great DI -- players and International calibre players can be measured in light years. You don't just switch jerseys and start playing.
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Post by Mix Breed-TEXAS,HI,LBSU on Nov 1, 2006 15:54:15 GMT -5
As soon as Kanoe Kamana'o and Courtney Thompson graduates this year, they need to get them going for 2008. These two are the national teams best chances now, consider Nellie Spicer gets even better when the time comes or Angie from Florida. And because I love incurring the wrath of fakabedit:This is another thing we hear all the time. So-and-so, once they graduate, will be the savior. The distance between DI -- even great DI -- players and International calibre players can be measured in light years. You don't just switch jerseys and start playing. Well it's my pleasure Ruffda. I'm glad you love it cause that's the only good thing I'll say to you...I guess that's where I get my class from, is by talking trashhhhh....goshhh, I love it... Kanoe and Courtney are both very athletic setter's. After their eligibility is up, they could train with the best to become the best. Both are 3x all-americans including this year which will make them 4x all-americans, but not sure if Courtney was an AA as a freshmen cause Kanoe was. What I'm saying is that, these two young ladies can take over the Setting when Ah Moy and Berg decides to retire. But even in Beijing, one of them can be backup to Berg or Ah Moy or at least I would like them to be.....
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2006 15:58:49 GMT -5
Courtney will be a 3x AA. Kanoe would be a 4x AA, although she was 3rd team last year and not a lock this year.
Fwiw.
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Post by Mix Breed-TEXAS,HI,LBSU on Nov 1, 2006 16:11:09 GMT -5
Courtney will be a 3x AA. Kanoe would be a 4x AA, although she was 3rd team last year and not a lock this year. Fwiw. She will be this year, that's if they look at her stats.
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Post by OverAndUnder on Nov 1, 2006 16:47:41 GMT -5
And don't blame college & club. It's not their place to do the job of the USAV. Put the blame where it belongs. Maybe then some heads would roll. They sure could use it. I keep seeing this sentiment, and it is a complete non sequitir. The entire thrust of my post was that other countries have built-in programs which DO fulfill the responsibility of developing players, and that the USA doesn't possess these programs in ANY sport, because we as a society believe the top priority of all teenagers should be to do well in high school, and the top priority of all late teens should be entrance into and graduation from a university. Club systems in other countries are no different from medieval guilds/academies where children entered in large numbers as novices, were mentored/trained through increasing levels of skill according to their potential, and those who displayed exceptional aptitude rose through the ranks and eventually became the new masters in their craft, while simultaneously being completely ignorant of other crafts. I don't see how 'The USAV' is supposed to tell parents: "Give us your 15-year-old for the next several years and we might be able to make her into an Olympic Gold Medal winner, but statistically she'll probably join the other 90% of the players whose names will never appear on the competition roster, in which case, oops, hopefully she can still pass a college entrance exam at age 23 after eight years of negligible academic exercise." As others in this thread have related, the tracking of players in other countries happens naturally within the youth club system -- which internally incentivizes behaviors by players and coaches that all contribute towards the same end of developing professional-grade talent. There is a pressure gradient which firmly pushes the players into their potential. In the USA, on the other hand, there is NO system. Any incentives towards NT-level play are artificial, weak, and inconsistently applied throughout the various programs that a volleyball player may join from age 12-25. The current system only incentivizes an NCAA scholarship which is not seen as a necessary or beneficial stepping stone to a pro/NT career, but rather as a means to an entirely separate end -- to Get A Degree and Be Somebody.
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