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Post by pnwvb on Oct 31, 2006 21:00:45 GMT -5
I know this has been dicsussed several times but our team is losing players and relying on older players to "get through" one more Olympics. We can't produce a passer/hitter, and the only one capable wants nothing to do with the National Team program anymore. Our setter will be 33 in Bejing, with no "real" back-up who is ready to step in if Robyn gets hurt. And are college teams are not producing any passers and hitters and we are definitely not producing a international caliber setter capable of winning medal. I was fortunate play my national team for 11 years and now that I live in USA I am rooting for USA to finally do something. And I don't blame Toshi for "over-training" before Athens, yes it may have been to much (13 straight weeks) but we were so far behind at that point I'm not sure he had a choice. Turns out we were not prepared, we were the last team statistically in passing and defense. IMO Tom Pingel is in way over his head. He is too enamored with height and touch and not equipped to accurately evaluate their ability to play in the backrow he from what I have heard was just a club director before he became in charge, is this correct? We have an ex-club coach as the second asistant, the list goes on. Someone said in another thread that we have a pipeline of younger talent, but we have had that pipeline since Mr. Gambardella introduced the concept over ten years ago. I think some of the blame should be placed on the college and club coaches as well; someone like Ogonna can go 4 years at Stanford without learning how to pass. She could help the program if she was capable, instead we have a 6'7 primary passer responsible for passing and scoring? We always have one of the best JNT or YNT and normally win at NORCECA or Junior World Championships, why is that when they become senior team they are being beaten by Brazil, China, Russia, Cuba, and now Dominican Republic, Holland, Germany are among the teams that are difficult. I think that there is only a handful of players now in college who will really be able to play the top international competition; and none appear to be setters. International setting is different than college setting like hitting and all the other skills. Just frustrated.
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Post by Phaedrus on Oct 31, 2006 21:31:52 GMT -5
pnwvb
I feel your pain. I have thought the national team doesn't train but take advantage of the athleticism of the athletes they already have. The pipeline was a great idea but it has been turned from a great idea to a revenue generating machine by your buddy Pingel.
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Post by blastingsand on Oct 31, 2006 21:51:47 GMT -5
I see your point. But what can we really do? We're soo far behind in the indoor games that there's really a long way to go up.
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Post by volleysean27 on Oct 31, 2006 21:51:52 GMT -5
lets put it this way.. after college most of the players here in the US either just move on with there lives or go to the beach and play vball or for the fortunate ones play overseas. I dont think that the USVa has run the program very well, but you even if we develop these young players at a young age, i dont think they wanna eat, sleep, and play vball 24/7 like other top notch programs in the world would. Until they move the training center to Anaheim, Ca.. the desire to live and train in colorado springs is of no interest to most players.
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Post by Murina on Oct 31, 2006 22:01:25 GMT -5
Yeah! Amen to most of that!
I don't blame the college coaches though - they're just doing what it takes to win their matches. I blame the people who allow rules like libero and 12/15/18 subs for kids!
I believe that Pingle was an international ref before getting his position with USA volleyball (not that it qualifies him, but at least he knew what volleyball looks like). I have no problem with his prior resume as a club coach either. Hell, every national team coach is also - or was once - a club coach. As a club coach Pingle built a very strong program in an area that few would have guessed could support it.
I am with you in thinking that Pingle, et al. really are not doing a very good job developing players for the USA national team. Their hands are tied pretty tightly though - the mass of the country wants players developed for college - not the national team. These are powerful handcuffs and it's going to take a charismatic and out of the box thinker to get the country on board the national team development bandwagon.
I think Pingle and the USA coaches understand and accept something that most of this board doesn't get: as things stand now, the USA NT will NEVER outskill anyone. The best chance the USA has is to be skilled enough, and more physical than everyone else. This leads to chosing players like Hodge, Fawcett, Akinradewo, Okogbaa etc. as the future of the NT. USA won't (NOT "can't") develop the skilled players so get the most amazing physical talent you can find.
I think you are flat wrong about the setter development though. The USA system evolution won't require a skilled setter like a Brazil or China. USA's system will require more of a Cuban setter - set high balls that can be crushed over and over and over. Be a good blocker... To this end Tortorello, McGinnis, Engle, Hunter. To their credit all of the American setters are more capable setters than the Cubans! Heck, the system under Toshi almost didn't require a setter! They won the WCH silver medal with, what the 5th setter on the depth chart? Would have won the gold if Keba had skiped practice the day before ;D
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Post by Murina on Oct 31, 2006 22:10:38 GMT -5
i dont think they wanna eat, sleep, and play vball 24/7 like other top notch programs in the world would. You badly overestimate the motivation for most national team players around the world! ;D I would say most are tired of volleyball, but it's their job and they have to play. Many players start working at a higher level much earlier than their American counterparts, practice and travel much more. A few years of high level club ball with national team service is a hell of a draining vocation! They stick with it because it provides, people expect it of them, and it's all they know. There are certainly many who still love playing and practicing and traveling, but don't kid yourself into thinking that everyone else is less tired of the gym than Americans! ;D
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Post by gobows on Oct 31, 2006 22:17:27 GMT -5
Is it that American players just have more attractive options ?....more fun, more money, etc.
Are these options that other countries don't have?
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Post by Murina on Oct 31, 2006 22:30:20 GMT -5
Is it that American players just have more attractive options ?....more fun, more money, etc. Are these options that other countries don't have? I don't think so. After college American girls have to live half way around the world for 7-8 months at a time, alone in a place where they probably don't speak the language... That's a pretty heavy burden. If you're a south american playing in south america, a european playing in europe, etc... you are still much closer to home and family and friends. Ask women of any nationality what is more important, playing a game or living within reach of family? I think the dominant answer will be family.
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Post by roy on Oct 31, 2006 23:25:23 GMT -5
Yeah! Amen to most of that! I don't blame the college coaches though - they're just doing what it takes to win their matches. I blame the people who allow rules like libero and 12/15/18 subs for kids! I completely agree with this. I can see a purpose for these rules. They allow more players time on the court. But this isn't helping with the development of these players. Instead, we are "hiding" their shortcomings instead of trying to develop their skills. The one factor about volleyball is that to be a star player, you need more than just one skill. In college volleyball, middles are removed from the back row with the libero like most international volleyball teams. However, in many college programs, one middle isn't developing her serve as the libero is serving in her place. That does not happen in international volleyball. Likewise, the substitutions do not help to develop of other players. Weak back row players are subbed out for DS and weak hitters or blockers are subbed into the front row. Even a weaker server is put in for the player that doesn't have a strong serve. International volleyball does not let that happen. While I believe we see some very interesting facets of the game develop from the substitutions (the 2005 Nebraska offense comes to mind), those will not translate into the international game and we lost the time to develop those skills in college.
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Post by VBCOACH on Oct 31, 2006 23:49:20 GMT -5
How the USA can win a Gold Medal: 1. Move to Anaheim CA.........YES. 2. Raise millions of dollars for the program - through corporate sponsorships. Yes, it can be done. (But apparently not by the honchos currently running USA Volleyball.) 3. Use most of the money for salaries for coaches and players. Pay the players MORE than they would make playing overseas...in the $50,000 - $100,000 range. 4. Pay the coaches enough to get the best coaches. 5. Require the players to play year round with The National Team. Use this time for skill development. 6. Put the word out: If you ever intend to play for the National Team, LEARN TO PASS! 7. Build into the training schedule numerous breaks - vacations to avoid burn-out and allow their bodies to recover. 8. When players achieve a certain skill level (determined by the coaches,) allow them to play overseas (if they want to) for a year. Maybe every other year, depending on the point in the 4 year Olympic cycle. 9. Resume international tours. Find teams willing to come to America for a tour. You couldn't get top teams to come during the pro season, because many of their top players are not available, but who knows, there should be some teams available. Try to schedule the better teams to come after the pro season is over. Use some of the money from corporate sponsorships to make it worth their while. Tour the country. Let America see the product. Let the players play in front of their friends and families. 10. Add water. 11. Mix. 12. Let develop for 6-8 years. I think that I forgot something. It'll come to me later.
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Post by volleytalk on Nov 1, 2006 0:14:25 GMT -5
Volleyball fans should learn more about international volleyball. International volleyball is tougher than NCAA. Look at those NCAA "stars". Aurea Curz got 8 pts against Brazil yesterday. Bibianna Candelas got only 2pts against Russia. Is it telling us something?
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Post by VolleyTX on Nov 1, 2006 9:49:25 GMT -5
This is, to me, the only critical issue on your list. You can't expect a player to "learn to pass" when coaches never give them the opportunity. If it isn't a skill that is natural to them.... the coach will always sub them out. They never get a chance to develop that skill.... especially in a game situation. Murina is right..... the rules have to change..... NEED to change.
We've heard the argument time and again about.... greater participation.... or better all around ball handling for a team. Why can't we just get a little creative. I say develop a separate league and teams for shorter players.
We can't expect a girl like Nnamani, who probably was never allowed or forced to be a primary passer all through her youth, to come to college or the national team and pick up passing! It just is not going to happen.
We can't blame coaches.... we have to blame the real culprit.... the sub rules.
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Post by OverAndUnder on Nov 1, 2006 9:58:34 GMT -5
And.... who institutes/votes for those sub rules?
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Post by VolleyTX on Nov 1, 2006 10:29:18 GMT -5
Point taken. How does the rule change system work? What is the governing body? How many folks actually get to vote... and who are they?
We need to get our sub rules more in line with FIVB rules.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2006 11:06:56 GMT -5
This is ridiculous and I will argue it until I am blue in the face. You do NOT need to change the rules for ALL USA VB players to find the 20-30 candidates for the National Team. Nor should you.
This keeps getting repeated, but I have yet to hear anyone actually present an argument that actually supports this theory. Simply put, the USA players in JOs, high school and college don't have the practice time to perfect the skills they _are_ required to have, let alone added skills. One could argue that changing the rules will make them _less_ talented, not more.
As discussed previously, will it help if the identified candidates play by FIVB rules? Sure. They do, actually. Should they play _more_? Yes. Will they? I doubt it.
You want a more competitive National Team? You lock those players up and make them play VB from 16 years on, on an international level. Think this is going to happen? Nope. And this will always put the USA at a disadvantage.
Sorry, but this drives me crazy. Ogonna's problem isn't/wasn't the rules or her coaches.
Finally, every discussion we have on this board about National Team candidates ALWAYS focuses on offensive stars. The all-around player -- and they do exist -- is almost never mentioned. Why are Haneef, Nnamani, Fawcett, Hodge the ones being promoted? How is this the fault of the rules?
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