vbfan
Sophomore
Posts: 221
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Post by vbfan on Jun 29, 2004 20:17:42 GMT -5
Just happening to be visiting Toronto. Did you know that yesterday was election day in Canada.
By watching some of the coverage it appears Canadians have elected the most left wing government in a generation. I believe that the 3 left wing parties got about 70% of the vote. I guess it's not that surprising after all this is a country that expects government to pay for health care. One person also told me that to a lot of people "privitization" is a dirty word.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2004 20:24:52 GMT -5
The fact is there are those of us who think people COLLECTIVELY can accomplish a lot more than can individuals all acting in their own self-interest. And we believe government can be a means to that end.
It's a shame that someone like Ronald Reagan made "government" a dirty word.
Education, healthcare, national defense, the country's infrastructure, etc. etc. How do all those things happen if white guys living in the suburbs are left to their own devices?
Of course, the trick is getting the right people in government...
;D
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Post by vierra on Jun 29, 2004 21:41:51 GMT -5
Historically, collectivization has not worked on a grand scale. The Soviet Union, China, and now North Korea went through years and years where their people suffered greatly when the state ran most enterprises. What resulted were large gaps between the few wealthy haves and the many have-nots. Hence, the amazing crash-and-burn of Mao Zedong's Great Leap Forward which focused on state-run heavy industrialization which then led to the great famine of 1958-1962 where 20 million people died. Then, the Cultural Revolution which was a disaster of epic proportions.
Now, all of that is repeating itself in North Korea where a famine that started in 1992/1993 is continuing to this day. Millions have died and thousands more try to escape into China and other countries. In North Korea, they set up political incentives which result in farmers generating 2.5 million tons of grain per year when in fact they need 8 million tons. There are no other incentives. Health care is provided by the North Korean govt but so what? People die in massive numbers because the govt doesn't have the money to buy basic drugs and equipment.
China realized this and has slowly opened up to market economics. It's almost capitalism there now. In North Korea, the only reason why the famine hasn't devastated more people is because black markets rose out of the dirt, so to speak. The government looks the other way because they have other worries, like building a nuclear arsenal system.
Self-interest does work on a macro-scale. Health care needs reform but without material rewards to pharmaceutical companies, doctors, medical technology companies, bio companies, the necessary medical products and services won't be there.
Collectivization may work on a small scale, like neighborhood lemonade stands by 8-year olds.
What people don't realize is that Karl Marx himself said that socialism and collective environments need one basic thing before it can work: a solid industrial period where you build wealth. Then and only then can you then reap the fruits of socialism. But in reality, you know what happens? Once people are rich and comfortable from the wealth that was created during the industrial phase, they are NOT going to want to spread it around and convert to socialism. A great great irony of Marxism as shown through history's eyes. Many countries, like China, decided to skip the industrial phase, which is blatantly against Marxism, and as a result, disaster!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2004 22:12:26 GMT -5
I wasn't promoting communism. There's a nice compromise somewhere between communism and ruthless capitalism.
And it seems to work in other countries.
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vbfan
Sophomore
Posts: 221
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Post by vbfan on Jun 30, 2004 2:36:45 GMT -5
Socialism does seem to work in many European countries. I know most Scandanavian countries provide free cradle to grave health care and subsidized housing and education. I think it is also mandated by law that every employee is required to be given at least six weeks of vacation a year. Of course half or more of their income goes to taxes, but these people are among the most well educated and longest living people in the world, so they must be doing something right.
I also visited France and I learned that the socialists also introduced a mandatory 35 hour work week. We Americans work way too much in my opinion.
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