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Post by aardvark on Jan 7, 2009 20:30:24 GMT -5
OK my fellow creatures of the planet... from the lowly Golden gopher comes this reply. You still don't get it... It isn't about me or my caveman lack of typing and spelling abilities. Its about my points I make and your inability to debate them. The most productive form of debate occurs when each side avoids hyperbole and tries to state points that are factual and relevant. Meandering from one point to another within a very broad topic, without answering the other side does not qualify. Proper debate needs standards. Somebody shouldn't be allowed to declare the sky is green and get away with it. You have to back up what you say or lose all credibility with the listening audience. I called you on that (in my opinion outrageous) remark you made that a teacher's retirement package rivaled a CEO's and you blissfully ignored that with a new long posting making a series of new statements, some of them equally (in my opinion) outrageous. I've seen you pull this before in other threads. I'm telling you again - you're not helping your cause. Neutral observers (assuming there are some) will be turned off by these tactics and presume that the ideals you advocate are those of nutcases with an axe to grind. Is that what you want? JT beat me to the punch in answering some of this, so I'm going to skip down a bit to add only new stuff.... Sure, you bring up differences in thought and opinion..but the following facts remain. DEMOCRATS and their Unions they REPRESENT are bankrupting this society. PERIOD. Workers work..but the companies supply the jobs ..not the workers. In the private sector Profit drives buissness..not UNIONS or political cronies. There sure are a lot of businesses going to the government now, asking for a bailout. I guess they aren't doing such a good job. I'm sure you would want to lay much of the blame for this on unions, but the fiasco that started the latest economic disaster sprang up in the financial sector, which isn't unionized at all. In Public service ..Government provides the jobs..and there is NO profit..EVER.Only annual cost increases. Although I've never been a union employee (my wife is), I have worked for the federal government for most of my career. They have to compete with the private sector to hire people. The salaries of employees are much more homogenous at different levels than the private sector, but I've found that the similarities between the government and a big corporation (from a worker perspective) aren't as different as most people think. I offered up computers,home education ...parents teaching and grading papers allowing teachers to be more on topic...as ways to think outside the box...Progressive ..means solving problems using NEW and different methods. Not by throwing more gas on a fire to put out a fire. I don't trust parents to grade the papers of their own kids properly. Most of the "problem children" in school not surprisingly also have "problem parents". I don't think there is any problem in the school system with teachers straying off topic. I do think there's a problem with fewer and fewer topics being covered, as schools put more and more time and effort into the few subjects that have standardized tests (because fed money is tied to how those school's students perform on those tests). Computers can be a useful tool, if used properly, but they aren't a replacement for a real live teacher. We've had many education fads that have come and gone. I remember when I was a kid, the big fad was open classrooms. What a monumental disaster that was! It was so lacking in common sense, but it was tried anyway at great expense, before being shown to be a failure. The bottom line is that I agree that education in America leaves a lot to be desired, but I disagree with you on what the main problems are, and naturally on how it's best to fix them. If I had a choice, the first thing I'd do is moderate the amount of money going to special ed programs. According to my wife, $8 billion dollars is spent on them across the country, compared to only $8 million dollars on gifted and talented programs. We spend enormous amounts of money trying to wring meager amounts of success out of disadvantaged students, while the best and brightest of the next generation are left to fend for themselves. My cousin's daughter teaches special ed in Philly, and her class has two kids in it. That's it. Just two. Not very efficient. Hawaii ,Buffalo are mentioned as poor teacher regions and rightfully so. I mentioned Minnesota ,and my personal knowledge of Calif.Teacher contracts. Now play along..it isn't about how much you spent in training in college ...SO WHAT ..you were an IDIOT to trust and educational system that thought to give you guaranties of future success by just attending and graduating. Graduating Seniors are finding this out the hard way. Another educational myth...EXPOSED. I'm not sure what myth you are exposing here. It's a published fact that the average person with a BS earns more than the average one that only has completed HS. And the average MS earns more than the average BS, and so on. Of course, individual cases vary. Referring back to my brother in law (the Toyota manager), he chose to major in history because he liked it, not because he knew the job prospects "were hopping". His choice. Another factor of job prospects versus degrees is the boom/bust business cycle. My profession, computer science, was in boom mode for a long time, as it rapidly expanded. Eventually, it dawned on people that programming computers wasn't nearly as much fun as playing games on them, at about the same time as businesses found they could save a lot of money by farming out programming projects overseas to places like India. The boom went bust. Over the last year, my oldest son has been touring colleges, trying to decide where to go. When we went to Penn State, the admissions guy said that getting into a specific major was dependent on student demand (they only have a limited supply of teachers) and GPA. I asked about Computer Science, and he said that currently a 3.1 high school GPA gets you in. He said that a few years earlier (when it was still in the boom cycle), you needed a 3.9 GPA to get in. Ouch. States like New York and Calif. and Mi. are asking for FEDERAL TAX DOLLARS to bail out their CONTRACTS with PUBLIC and PRIVATE UNION CONTRACTS. THIS IS A INDISPUTABLE FACT. I'm sorry, but I can't parse your indisputable fact. You really need to write more clearly. There fore I can ask ...why should rural POOR COUNTIES such as mine pay for INNER cities that cave to DEMOCRATIC UNION DEMANDS? I think this is one of those perception/reality things. Everybody always thinks "the other guy" is getting all the benefits, much more so than they are. A recent issue of Time Magazine printed out a map of the country showing the amount the feds spent on citizens versus the amount they took in from them. Guess what? Rural areas (Minnesota, and other sections of the west) consistently received more money than they provided, while dense, citified areas (notably the northeast) received less than what they provided. The biggest feeder at the federal trough being the most sparsely populated state - Alaska. Now, I would expect that logistics being what they are, it's more efficient to serve densely populated groups. Thus, it should (in my opinion) be patterned that way. However, since it *is* patterned that way, your point of view doesn't have statistical support in the general sense. My town has a volunteer Fire department...1st responders get $10 for every call. Teachers make 10% over the county average. So then you use the OBAMA method of teacher wage VS> CEO to fire up the team. Again..Be a CEO if its all that easy...Come spend 40 years working to make it to the top..Thousands fail every year. Executive compensation, in relation to non-management worker compensation, has greatly increased in the last two decades. Yet businesses aren't doing any better than they were before. The only change is how much is being paid the people at the top. The price of failure is a golden parachute. You're fired! Here's 20 mill, now go away. A great tragedy indeed. How will we be able to keep the cabernet sauvignon chilled? The Rich vs. poor ...Like every Rich person cheated the common working stiff along the way. 2 Americas. JOHN EDWARDS.. But there is a greater divide between PRIVATE and public workers DEMOCRATS wont delve into. Almost all are UNION represented and have save guards and lifestyle promises that the Private sector cannot give. Bill, you just can't teach without teachers, you can't fight fires without firemen, and you can't catch crooks without police. People are needed to do services. If you're not going to pay good wages or benefits for those services, then people will find other jobs instead, and your kids will grow up stupid and turn to crime as your house burns down. My wife works for the state..and is UNION ...I worked For the Painters UNION for 35 years...She for 15 years and her benefits surpassed any I ever had. She never faces layoffs, nor faces job relocation and driving 150 miles per day. She NEVER worked 60 hrs in a week and I bet TEACHERS NEVER DO also. I saw 4 people DIE during my career ..the last at The Mall of America. I doubt teachers worry about falling 120 ft during their work day. I spent over a year at 90 ft. ...50 hr a week Minimum. I certainly wouldn't want your job. My parents paid my way through college, and I chose a degree in a field that I thought would pay well (and was relatively safe). That worked out well for me. My brother also got a free college education, but chose a career outside of that field. He now makes about half of what I do, but at least it doesn't require a dangerous working environment. So there you have it - the pay off is a result of opportunity, good choices, and yes a little luck. At some point, you could have looked to see what the long term risks and rewards of your field was before entering it. I doubt that you did this. Now you can spread your newfound knowledge to your children and tell them that thumbing their nose at education and getting a job working with murderers and rapists 90 feet above the ground "isn't all that", and that maybe they should set their sights on a career that involves more mental labor than physical? It isn't an argument about job training Vs. Pay. My UNION and MY job and 90% on Main St. wont ask for a government bailout. Only Democrats and AUTO WORKERS..who they represent..and a failed business model. The banking sector is a GOP group, not a Dem one. And when the Big Three auto companies came to DC asking for fed money (after it looked like the feds were going to bailout the bankers), their CEOs famously arrived via corporate jets. Those companies aren't in trouble now because of high union costs (although that certainly hasn't helped). They are in trouble because of poor business decisions made at the top. Pushing Hummers when a future energy crisis was sure to happen. Trying ad campaigns to buy American instead of making better products. And many more mistakes. And now they're so big we can't let them fail? Anyone not liking governmental anti-monopoly efforts in the past take heed. Only Democrats and Teacher UNIONS who they represent..and where is our ranking in the world? Don't Blame BUSH.. It was worst during CARTER and Clinton. OK, Bill, you lost me. What ranking in the world are you talking about? And what specifically was worse under Carter and Clinton? Only Democrats and public employees UNIONS who they represent...fail to mention our education scores and kids are not taught any better during their power times..only the cost sky rockets. Our fire and police protection remains the same...only the cost increases. ALL IN MAJOR METROPOLITAN CITIES... That's our 2 Americas you can't see...those who live in cities ,represented by OBAMA and those who live in the rural areas..represented by Republicans. Both are entirely funded in a different manner and offer different social services. Thus we get our discrepancies in our debates. We get our separation and strong differences. The Cities cannot fund the social services they promise. Democrats must tax those they feel need to be taxed more. So you prefer the Reagan/Bush GOP mantra of not taxing and spending anyway?
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Post by aardvark on Jan 7, 2009 20:53:26 GMT -5
"I hate to ruin your day with some facts, but according to my son's American Government textbook, union membership as a percentage of the American workforce hit a high of 25% in the late 1950's, and has declined steadily (nearly every year, in fact) since then to a 13% level in the year 2000. " GREAT ..more educational myths being perpetrated. So ..Now for the rest of the story. Unions were at there peak from the 50' when workers really got screwed over... Thus workers formed UNIONS. Companies saw the Danger of having a outside entity dictate labor cost to them and responded ..by raising wages and offering retirement and health plans. Cycles ebbed and flowed through the 90s peaks and valleys but wages and benefits rose rapidly since the early 90's... Unions were not seen as necessary...amd the private sector expanded and grew. Fast forward to day. Where are all the UNION strong holds? In GOVERNMENT and SERVICES funded by taxpayers. Police...Firefighters, and yes EDUCATION... You're going great so far, Bill! The one area that unions have increased has been in governmental services (so sayeth that very same textbook I referred to before). Yay for Bill! The unions destroyed many other places where they were in place. Manufacturing..textiles..Carpets...clothing..retail...Steel ..aircraft. TV and Airlines and now car manufacturing. Companies like General Electric...Maytag... From the mountaintop to the valley in just one paragraph. Bill, you haven't shown any evidence that unions have destroyed any of these things, or that they are even destroyed, in fact. The NE is called the rust belt, Mi is called corrupt and failed. Calif. and New York are Bankrupt. As far as I know, New York isn't bankrupt. New York City nearly went under a decade or so ago, but they are fine now. California is having problems, but that isn't because of unions. The rust belt is just a name. Its not because of Corporate greed...or country conservative values. UNIONS put cost beyond what companies and the public were willing to pay. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. The public always has the option to cut school budgets, and the unions have options that include striking to get what they want. Both sides are interested in getting the job done, but the public wants to pay as little as possible, while the unions want to get paid as much as possible. How is this any different from a non-union situation? It isn't, really. Do you know why unions have coalesced around the service industry? Because corporations beat them in other industries by farming out those jobs overseas. You can't do that with services: Help! Help! My house is on fire! Come quick to put it out. Yes, m'am. Please hold while I transfer you to our service desk in India..... So, for service industries, unions have more power. This doesn't mean they win all of the time. My brother in law's county had a teacher battle, and the teachers ended up losing. Well, sort of. Most accepted the pill bitterly and kept working. Others couldn't accept it, and got jobs in neighboring counties. Not all of the teaching positions that were needed were filled, and many that were filled were by bad teachers. So now my brother in law complains about the quality of teaching that his kids are getting. You get what you pay for.
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Post by rhinovb14 on Jan 8, 2009 8:08:23 GMT -5
I have never seen an Aardvark being that I live in Buffalo. See a lot of snow . Your arguments offer a fresh perspective here. Very well done. I thought about Computer Science, but in 1992 I didn't really have a lot of experience with computers. We didn't own one unless you count Atari 2600 or Nintendo!
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Post by goGopherBill on Jan 8, 2009 10:59:51 GMT -5
I wa thinking along the Rossetta (sp.)program that is hyped for teaching languages?
I not only question Unions and taxes but try and provide alternatives...which is light years ahead of ..."anything but Bush"
Lets continue on..With.
All public service contracts negotiated 2 years ago must be reopened to reflect current economy ..or wages are frozen until surplus occurs.
No public monies are to be given to any sports franchise. All Senators and Government workers must go back to a wage of 2 years ago or agree to a immediate wage freeze.,along with HIRING FREEZE.
All corporate CEO's found or CHARGED with a crime by the government for cooking the books shall be arrested and JAILED without bail and forced to give up all Monies in repay ment.
Any government official found guilty of crime shall lose position immediately and A SPECIAL ELECTION shall be held. That includes RAPE ..DUI...theft.laundering money,bribery,or anything that hurts the people they serve. NO 2nd chances.
All Corporate companies must present books for inspection to government if they receive any government aid.
All Banks must reduce Credit card rates to reflect current intrest rates they provide to consumers. A limit shall be set on how much they can charge period.
Banks that do not wish to comply lose ability to do business in America, MOVE TO CHICAGO and continue loan shark business.
All government contracts SHALL BE OPEN to all bidders.
and to solve the current election scam..
ALL VOTERS shall be required to have a voter ID card with photo and bar code. Don't like it? Stay home and let LEGAL people control the country legally.
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Post by JT on Jan 8, 2009 11:27:37 GMT -5
All public service contracts negotiated 2 years ago must be reopened to reflect current economy ..or wages are frozen until surplus occurs. So contracts are no longer binding? Should the unions have the power to renegotiate contracts if the economy gets improves sometime during their two-year contract, or is it just the employers who have the power to toss out what they agreed to? Fine by me. Wow, so now, all you have to do is CHARGE someone, and they can be thrown in jail, and forced to give up money? Whatever happened to the constitutional protections in your world, Bill? That would require an amendment, but I don't disagree with it in general. On the other hand, the people who wrote the constitution were (imho justifiably) concerned with the executive branch interfering with the legislative branch by arresting people in order to stop lawmaking. Some of the immunity that govt officials have is to prevent abuses by other govt officials. How about just not giving govt money to private companies? Why should they get bailouts? So private companies can't decide what level of profit they need, to match the risk they're taking in lending money? What scam is that?
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Post by soothsayer on Jan 8, 2009 11:28:53 GMT -5
First of all, WHAT current election scam? There is no current election scam.
Second of all, WHY would we need to do this, Mr. Watch-Every-Penny-We-Spend?
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Post by rhinovb14 on Jan 8, 2009 11:48:27 GMT -5
I actually with agree with MOST of what Bill offered, with some exceptions. But some of those aren't bad ideas.
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Post by goGopherBill on Jan 8, 2009 12:47:57 GMT -5
What election scam..?
Lets review HISTORY.
Here in Minnesota we have voter fraud on several levels. A voter ID card with a bar code would eliminate voter fraud. Do you know a judge let a CONVICTED COCAINE DEALER free to vote before sentencing...so he could vote OBAMA and FRANKIN...
Gee and when he was to return to be jailed he skipped his appointment. A convicted felon is not legally allowed to vote in Minnesota and most places...ANOTHER DEMOCRAT JUDGE violating rule of law for DEMOCRATIC GAIN.
Then so Democrats are happy the BUSH win would be well documented by easy to read records that Bar codes and picture IDS present. Only eligible voters are allowed to dictate political process.Why wont DEMOCRATS SIGN ON?
Common Sheep ..answer WHY ! BAAAAA
Jt ...Service and PUBLIC UNIONS work for US..the people. NOT some abstract Government. They get paid with OUR MONEY ..not the treasuries...
We the people get to DICTATE TERMS...NOT UNIONS. If you dont like it get a private service job and learn about lay offs ,wage freezes..and unemployment.
OUR ELECTED officials by being subsidized by UNIONS through campaign DONATIONS and other monies under the table have forgotten who they serve.. My painters UNION has given over 6 million dollars to Democrats over the last 3 cycles.
HOW would you like to be forced to p[ay UNION WAGES to anything you need painted.You would be forced to pay Health care and SS to have a fence painted ..or that living room painted.
That's exactly what we have with education .. Forced UNIONS ..no way they renegotiate during bad times. That's why performence pay VS. TENURE must be on the table.
Good teachers being penalised for bad teachers must stop. TEACHERS would have a say in my system...they know who's slacking and where more than any body.
Question ..would they put kids first or TEACHERS?
WE ,Not UNIONS control 80% of the country. UNIONS only control EDUCATION<POLICE<FIRE ..and public services...along with SPORT SALRIES..which of course are a JOKE.
We are already subsidizing their garbage.New sStadiums..taxes...
Oh ,and Hollowood is UNION...how are movies ticket prices in your HOOD....so MOVIE stars can live drunk and on drugs . Great role models for our KIDS. WHY not drug test and performance testing for them.?
Show our KIDS we are serious about drugs and booze... But no...they can become SENATORS,sports legends and movie stars and need not worry about it...everything ..all the time...
Money for nothing..Drugs for free...I wanna be a rock star.
Or a Democratic senator. President. Congressman.
Or be like FRANKIN.....yippeeeee!!!!!
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Post by rhinovb14 on Jan 8, 2009 13:08:45 GMT -5
I do all my own painting, and drywall, and most of my own home improvements. Just can't figure out that darn plumbing. Where's Joe the Plumber when you need him!?
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Post by soothsayer on Jan 8, 2009 13:16:15 GMT -5
There is no election scam in Minnesota. Once again, Bill is just posting lies.
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Post by JT on Jan 8, 2009 13:28:06 GMT -5
What election scam..? Lets review HISTORY. Here in Minnesota we have voter fraud on several levels. A little bit more of a "review" would be nice. How do you know who he voted for? Did you go into the booth with him? Did you illegally pull his ballot? Sounds like more than a voter problem. Actually, most places, iirc, allow felons to vote once they've served their sentence. In this case, I suspect that it was technically legel -- until he's sentenced, he isn't a convicted felon. So your proposed voter ID card wouldn't help here. Because voter ID also prevents some eligible voters from voting. The question is whether you want some people who shouldn't be able to vote to cast votes, or whether you want some people who should be able to vote being un-able to do so. Okay, so you think that we the people should be able to void contracts that our representatives have signed? Whoever it is (the govt, the people, company-XYY)... why should they be able to void a contract that they have agreed to, because something unexpected occurred? Damn. you mean that contracts actually mean that we have to do what we said we were going to do? How horrible, Bill. We should NEVER be responsible for our promises and commitments.... right? I know we are. I don't agree with it. It doesn't change the fact that we are. Don't get on my case for the public financing of stadiums fiasco, Bill. In fact, wasn't it a heavy push by good old Pawlenty that got the Twinkie stadium financing set up? Not saying he was the only one... there are plenty of politicians who should have been ousted over that.... just saying that REPs are no better than DEMs on this.
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Post by goGopherBill on Jan 8, 2009 14:15:41 GMT -5
Jt..he was already convicted..He publicly stated he would vote for OBAMA..and then logically FRANKIN.
Most voted for each other along party lines.
Except in our Senate vote where more voted for FRANKIN than OBAMA ..which historically..never happens.
Any one convicted of a crime that is a felony is NOT able to vote until their sentence is through and PROBATIONARY TIME ALSO..which can be years.
Of course DEMOCRATS want the criminal vote. They are usually poor and pissed off at THE MAN... easy vote.
"Okay, so you think that we the people should be able to void contracts that our representatives have signed? Whoever it is (the govt, the people, company-XYY)... why should they be able to void a contract that they have agreed to, because something unexpected occurred?"
In a word yes. If we find our representatives took money for a deal...or the deal was fraudulent and terms and agreements are not followed to by the other party.
TRADE agreements, CLINTON and his library foundation...UNION bids to companies that paid to play...SEE RICHARDSON in NM> and his highway contracts. We are being screwed over .
OUR school districts caving to double % increases... Our Governments caving to Stadium demands. Our state caving to UNIVERSITY DEMANDS..new stadiums...
WE should never be held to commitments done in error,by fraud..by forcefullness...or by greed.
A contract is said to be in good standing when all clauses are kept and both sides negotiated opening and legally.
When one enters a BUDGET Contract and it is based upon future earnings and tax revenues that are bogus..then the contract was not built in good faith.
It was based upon pay to play.
They gave you money to keep getting re-elected and you gave them the fat contract.
Bad for AMERICA.
How mush historical proof do you want.?
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Post by aardvark on Jan 8, 2009 17:28:35 GMT -5
JT seems to think a lot like me. Many of his comments in response to Bill would have brought a similar response from me, had I seen them first. So I'll just stick with the small amounts of leftovers. First, Bill is using a lot of absolutist terms. Words like never, all, must, etc. That just doesn't work in the real world, which is a shade of gray, not black and white. Second, we already have a court system set up in this country for judging reneging on contracts. Yes, the ever deepening piles of laws could be further amended for this case or that one. This might even be an improvement, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it. And now on to just one of Bill's quotes that I'd like to respond to... We the people get to DICTATE TERMS...NOT UNIONS. If you dont like it get a private service job and learn about lay offs ,wage freezes..and unemployment. Bill, unions are a negotiating party. They represent the workers. Yes, the employer could choose to dictate terms. And as I've already noted, if the unions don't find those terms acceptable, they have options too, which includes rejecting them and not working. You generally can't force someone to work, if they don't want to. If the unions don't want to work under the terms the employer dictates, then a strike occurs, and the service no longer gets provided. I suppose it's also possible for the employer to try to get a non-union group to perform the same service, but then that will almost certainly result in a lower quality service, at least in the near term (remember the air traffic controllers?). Life is about choices. Choices are about consequences. When an employer and their union battle it out, both tend to get bloodied. It's the nature of the game. Both want the most for themselves. Neither side is inherently evil.
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Post by JT on Jan 8, 2009 18:08:16 GMT -5
WE should never be held to commitments done in error,by fraud..by forcefullness...or by greed. So the whole profit motive -- the thing that drives business, Bill -- is something which can be used to justify contract nullification. I want to force the bank to change the terms on my mortgage, because the economy changed, and they set that APR based on the greedy notion of making a PROFIT. Shame on them. And other than your claims, you haven't shown that the contracts you insist need to be renegotiated were done in anything other than good faith, openly, and legally. You don't understand the meaning of good faith. Future earnings and tax revenues are projected. Their not being accurate does not mean that it was not done in good faith.
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Post by TheSantaBarbarian on Jan 8, 2009 19:31:41 GMT -5
I have only one prediction. Our two limbaugh zombies will whine through the entire year.
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