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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2009 13:57:26 GMT -5
Explain away, Bill. Explain it all away.
These are the same clowns who claim Media Matters quotes them out of context. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2009 13:59:57 GMT -5
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Post by goGopherBill on May 5, 2009 15:27:23 GMT -5
I blame Bush...It works for you druids.
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Post by hammer on May 6, 2009 13:09:49 GMT -5
The problem is that this is all talk. I prefer action. I like to see what happens when the proverbial sh*t hits the fan. Remember how Bush said he was going to keep spending under control. Well, he didn't. He never met a spending bill he didn't want to sign. Obama repeatedly promised to support "what works" regarding Educational Choices. But when pressured by the teachers unions, he decided to end the highly successful D.C. school vouchers program. Lesson, don't trust politicians; don't judge books by their covers.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2009 16:22:23 GMT -5
Lesson: Don't dig a trench you can't crawl out of.
Speaking of talk, what I'm really tired of is people bad-mouthing politicians and government. Are some politicians slimeballs? Yes. Is some government inefficient? Yes. But they are OUR politicians and it's our government. If you don't like them, vote them out. If you don't like what the government is doing, work to change it. But it's way too easy to just blame them for everything.
Of course, you can be like Bill and claim that Business will always have the answers, that Greed is good, that trickle down is the best we can do. Good luck with that.
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Post by JT on May 6, 2009 16:41:55 GMT -5
If you don't like them, vote them out. If you don't like what the government is doing, work to change it. I try. I try. So why can't I also bad-mouth them when I feel they do something stupid (which is most of the time)? Don't bad mouth business. Are some companies corrupt? Yes. Are some companies inefficient? Yes. But they are OUR executives and our companies. If you don't like them, then start your own company and put them out of business.
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Post by paloalto on May 6, 2009 17:11:30 GMT -5
Lesson: Don't dig a trench you can't crawl out of. Speaking of talk, what I'm really tired of is people bad-mouthing politicians and government. But it's way too easy to just blame them for everything. Did you ever get tired of yourself bad-mouthing George Bush and his administration? When you blamed George Bush for almost anything and everything that went wrong, I suppose that doesn't count. Just when I thought you were reasonable, you come out with these hypocritical, self-serving statements. Can you understand how some people might think you have a double standard?....I am not a Bush fan at all, but there has to be some objectivity in one's viewpoints.
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Post by mikegarrison on May 6, 2009 17:15:11 GMT -5
but there has to be some objectivity in one's viewpoints. My experience suggests that this is not a correct statement. Not only is this not necessary, but it is pretty nearly non-existent.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2009 17:20:10 GMT -5
If you don't like them, vote them out. If you don't like what the government is doing, work to change it. I try. I try. So why can't I also bad-mouth them when I feel they do something stupid (which is most of the time)? I just think the badmouthing should fall on specific politicians, rather than lumping them all together. There's also that old truth: everyone hates Congress, but not their Congressperson. Part of the same problem. I knew that was coming. And you are, of course, right. I just have more faith in people working for the common good than I do for people who *generally* are working to line their own pockets. I know all Business is not like that. I also know it, for the most part, creates a functioning economy. But, hell, don't ask me to count on them to do the right thing.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2009 17:26:06 GMT -5
Lesson: Don't dig a trench you can't crawl out of. Speaking of talk, what I'm really tired of is people bad-mouthing politicians and government. But it's way too easy to just blame them for everything. Did you ever get tired of yourself bad-mouthing George Bush and his administration? I did actually. Frequently. But here's a case where I'm criticizing a *specific* politician and his policies. I don't think it's relevant to what I am arguing above. This did not happen. Hell, I didn't even blame him for 9/11. I did blame him for a lot, I admit. But *everything*? That's Bob talking. Show me your proof! Sorry you feel that way. I'm not sure why you've jumped to that conclusion, based on my comments above. I think I clearly stated it's best not to tar the whole lot of them with the same brush. I try not to do that. Just because I've tarred W in the past, doesn't mean I've applied it to all of them. You can smack me for dumping on W, if you want, but the comments above are in no way hypocritical. At least not in terms of my criticism of W. Am I wrong?
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Post by mikegarrison on May 6, 2009 17:28:02 GMT -5
I knew that was coming. And you are, of course, right. I just have more faith in people working for the common good than I do for people who *generally* are working to line their own pockets. I know all Business is not like that. I also know it, for the most part, creates a functioning economy. But, hell, don't ask me to count on them to do the right thing. Expecting that people will not work to benefit their own interests is just silly. The goal is to set things up so that people working for their own interests also works for the benefit of the rest of society. But it's not always possible. The perfect social/economic system has yet to be invented, and probably can't exist any more than the perfect lifeform can exist. The more successful a system is, the more it changes the world away from the situation that created it and allowed its success.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2009 17:28:51 GMT -5
Rereading my original post, I can see where I may not have made my point clear. It is this:
I am tired of people slamming government and all politicians rather than focusing on the specific problems or the specific politicians and policies.
Reagan's "Government is not the solution, it's the problem" is the *perfect* example of this misguided mentality.
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Post by paloalto on May 6, 2009 17:32:07 GMT -5
but there has to be some objectivity in one's viewpoints. My experience suggests that this is not a correct statement.... it is pretty nearly non-existent. This is a perceptive observation... It would be better for me to say,"people should strive for some objectivity in their veiwpoints if they are going to criticize others for being bias." Obviously, most of us fail at true objectivity; myself certainly being most guilty of the transgression.
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Post by mikegarrison on May 6, 2009 17:35:08 GMT -5
My experience suggests that this is not a correct statement.... it is pretty nearly non-existent. This is a perceptive observation... It would be better for me to say,"people should strive for some objectivity in their veiwpoints if they are going to criticize others for being bias." Obviously, most of us fail at true objectivity; myself certainly being most guilty of the transgression. I'm not sure it's a "transgression". More like just a fact of human nature. The best persuaders understand this and recognize that their own biases are not necessarily the same as the biases of the people they are trying to persuade. That means you have to try and think like the target before you can persuade the target to think like you.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2009 17:40:40 GMT -5
Expecting that people will not work to benefit their own interests is just silly. That's why I *don't* expect it and also why I think government is the solution, not the problem. Unfortunately, *bad* government *is* a problem.
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