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Post by TheSantaBarbarian on Jul 23, 2011 20:55:38 GMT -5
What a terrible thing. And for only one person not only to blow up a building but to then manage to shoot and kill at least 85 people...  It seems that the gunman was anti-muslim and that was his excuse for killing his own people. As we learned from Oklahoma City, we don't have to go looking across an ocean to find hate and evil directed against us. How very very sad for the people of Norway, it would have been easier if it had been a muslim extreamist instead. |
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Post by azvb on Jul 24, 2011 17:09:52 GMT -5
Such a sad event. And Norway, of all places. Killing anyone, but especially children, in the name of religion (any religion) just baffles my mind.
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Post by Phaedrus on Jul 24, 2011 19:36:10 GMT -5
How very very sad for the people of Norway, it would have been easier if it had been a muslim extreamist instead. How would it have been easier? Ignorant, hate filled dogmatic extremists are the same, no matter their beliefs. They all use the belief as a justification for executing their hate. |
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Post by OptimusPrime on Jul 24, 2011 19:49:04 GMT -5
How very very sad for the people of Norway, it would have been easier if it had been a muslim extreamist instead. How would it have been easier? Ignorant, hate filled dogmatic extremists are the same, no matter their beliefs. They all use the belief as a justification for executing their hate. There is NO justification in Christianity for murder and the fact this crazy man is even associated with Christianity is appalling. Christians are called to love thy neighbor not murder innocent people... And this is why when so many claim to be Christians, God will have a big surprise when He says "I never knew you". Peace out. May the people of Norway somehow find solace... |
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Post by TheSantaBarbarian on Jul 24, 2011 23:13:10 GMT -5
How very very sad for the people of Norway, it would have been easier if it had been a muslim extreamist instead. How would it have been easier? Ignorant, hate filled dogmatic extremists are the same, no matter their beliefs. They all use the belief as a justification for executing their hate. That wasn't what I was refering to. I think it is even harder when it is one of your own that does something like that. That was all that I meant. |
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Post by mikegarrison on Jul 24, 2011 23:43:22 GMT -5
There is NO justification in Christianity for murder None in Islam either. Or in pretty much any religion I can think of. And yet, many people convince themselves that their religion requires them to kill people. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2011 7:58:22 GMT -5
There is NO justification in Christianity for murder None in Islam either. Or in pretty much any religion I can think of. And yet, many people convince themselves that their religion requires them to kill people. mike -- this is simply not true. have you read the quran, and do you know how islam resolves conflicting suras in terms of which has authority over believers? are you also aware of what the hadith have to say on this, and the authoritative fatwas and other sharia rulings and precedents handed down by the major schools of islamic jurisprudence regarding these issues? are you aware of taqiyya, and the bipolar nature of islamist media relations? i do, though, acknowledge and appreciate your recognition that Christ gives His believers absolutely no justification for the murder of innocents. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2011 7:58:53 GMT -5
How would it have been easier? Ignorant, hate filled dogmatic extremists are the same, no matter their beliefs. They all use the belief as a justification for executing their hate. There is NO justification in Christianity for murder and the fact this crazy man is even associated with Christianity is appalling. Christians are called to love thy neighbor not murder innocent people... And this is why when so many claim to be Christians, God will have a big surprise when He says "I never knew you". Peace out. May the people of Norway somehow find solace... +1 |
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Post by Phaedrus on Jul 25, 2011 10:32:06 GMT -5
None in Islam either. Or in pretty much any religion I can think of. And yet, many people convince themselves that their religion requires them to kill people. mike -- this is simply not true. have you read the quran, and do you know how islam resolves conflicting suras in terms of which has authority over believers? are you also aware of what the hadith have to say on this, and the authoritative fatwas and other sharia rulings and precedents handed down by the major schools of islamic jurisprudence regarding these issues? are you aware of taqiyya, and the bipolar nature of islamist media relations? i do, though, acknowledge and appreciate your recognition that Christ gives His believers absolutely no justification for the murder of innocents. All religious movements can be used to justify any acts of destruction by zealots. Original intent or teachings be damned. Your argument doesn't hold water because it doesn't matter what your interpretation is. The zealot's interpretation has more to do with what happens in reality. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2011 10:56:51 GMT -5
mike -- this is simply not true. have you read the quran, and do you know how islam resolves conflicting suras in terms of which has authority over believers? are you also aware of what the hadith have to say on this, and the authoritative fatwas and other sharia rulings and precedents handed down by the major schools of islamic jurisprudence regarding these issues? are you aware of taqiyya, and the bipolar nature of islamist media relations? i do, though, acknowledge and appreciate your recognition that Christ gives His believers absolutely no justification for the murder of innocents. All religious movements can be used to justify any acts of destruction by zealots. Original intent or teachings be damned. Your argument doesn't hold water because it doesn't matter what your interpretation is. The zealot's interpretation has more to do with what happens in reality. there are 2 problems here, phaedrus: original intent/teachings in the quran -- early suras -- are superseded, according to islamic scholarship, by later suras. so the concept of "original intent or teachings" is relatively non-applicable to islam. also contributing to this are the hadith, fatwas, and sharia rulings and precedents i mentioned. you are correct in principle -- as a general statement -- but what religion poses the biggest threat to innocent lives in 2011? and given the violent track record of islamism over the past 2 decades, what religion do you see producing the most zealots over the next decade? are you suggesting that we should not consider islamism a primary threat today merely because all religions belief systems (let's include political factions here too) have the potential to produce zealots? this sort of logic will neuter us, phaedrus. yes, everyone has the potential to be evil. but that's not the question. the questions are these: who is actually living up to this potential in the present time? and will our desire to feel good about ourselves by being "tolerant" prove to be a fatal mistake to countless innocents? some day, historians will look back on this society's political correctness and shake their heads in disbelief. we don't want to draw the line. we stand for nothing. and as churchill knew quite well, those who stand for nothing fall... |
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Post by mikegarrison on Jul 25, 2011 12:11:16 GMT -5
Bluntly, cvvc, I consider you to be far more of a threat than most Muslims I have met. Anyone who is so convinced that his own belief system is the only correct one is dangerous.
It doesn't matter which religion these crazy folks belong to -- what makes them threats is their conviction that they alone are righteous.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2011 12:38:23 GMT -5
Bluntly, cvvc, I consider you to be far more of a threat than most Muslims I have met. Anyone who is so convinced that his own belief system is the only correct one is dangerous. It doesn't matter which religion these crazy folks belong to -- what makes them threats is their conviction that they alone are righteous. no mike -- what makes them threats is their conviction that their god hates the innocents, and commands their hatred. righteousness has nothing to do with it (more below). i assure you, mike -- i am no threat to you whatsoever. what exactly makes me dangerous? and in the context of this thread -- what exactly makes me a lethal threat to innocents? and it does indeed matter what religion these crazy folks belong to. i have ready many, many things over the last 20+ years where islamist killers reference their religion as justification for what they've done. i assume you are including this norwegian psychopath among the crazy folks. pls point out where he states his religion requires the murders he committed. history is history, mike. i do not dispute that religion has been used to justify killing historically. and the lone zealot of whatever belief will never go away. but no one has been able to dispute, to date, that islam is the only religion constituting a current threat, and has been for a long time now. all other significant/murderous ideological threats since ww1 have essentially been secular. and you still haven't answered the questions i posed in my last post. instead, you point to someone who has beliefs different from yourself as being "dangerous" and ignore the real danger. the proven danger. how many innocents have born-again Christians slaughtered over the last 20+ years, mike? as for who is righteous: my faith tells me that there is no one righteous; not one. Romans 3:10. so don't call me righteous, mike, because i am not. on the other hand, what does the quran say about the righteousness of murders committed in the name of allah? even your -- and my -- moderate muslim acquaintances have trouble with this one... |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2011 11:02:37 GMT -5
One can find plenty of calls to violence in the Bible.
How does someone shoot this many people and then get taken alive?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2011 11:15:30 GMT -5
One can find plenty of calls to violence in the Bible. not in the New Testament, ruff. and none of which apply today. most of them arise from a righteously angry God. if you do not understand or accept the concept of His righteous anger, you will misunderstand such verses... |
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Post by TheSantaBarbarian on Jul 26, 2011 11:41:23 GMT -5
Please, enough of the religous arguing in this thread. This was about what happened to the people of Norway, and if you wish to promote (or demote) a religion, please take it to the political board.
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It seems that the gunman was anti-muslim and that was his excuse for killing his own people. As we learned from Oklahoma City, we don't have to go looking across an ocean to find hate and evil directed against us. How very very sad for the people of Norway, it would have been easier if it had been a muslim extreamist instead.
