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Post by beachvolleymike on Apr 29, 2012 0:11:35 GMT -5
Hypothetical: If a program were to sandbag their teams in dual matches to win the overall competition is it ethical? If a coach reassigns their #2 team to #4 or #5, is it short-changing the athletes? Is it bad for the sport? Who supports sandbagging? Is it just a wise strategy and nothing more?
If it is bad for everyone: How do you combat it and still give the coaches freedom to adjust to real changes? Could there be a point system where the #1 victor is awarded 5 pts, #2 gets 4, #3 gets 3, etc? The committee must have thought of this and decided against it for some reason....anyone know? GLM...
Sent from my MB860 using ProBoards
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Post by geddyleemarvin on Apr 29, 2012 0:29:57 GMT -5
Oy Very. I'm pretty buzzed right now, I'll think about overnight.
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Post by BeachbytheBay on Apr 29, 2012 11:26:32 GMT -5
so tell the Florida State coach not to sand-bag
some of you need to get real - must be little league parents in spare time.
If you want to avoid all this stupid 'subjectiveness' evaluation of the other teams, then do the following:
Each team plays every other team in one game to 15 (that's five games to 15 for each pair on a squad, and 25 total points to be earned for the match) - 1st team to 13 wins wins the match - case closed - quit your whining - if you don't make/support that rule then go ahead and whine and whine. it would also allow a team to substitute for injury or just to play more players - and it would add STRATEGY to the sport (but I know some of you whiners would call substituting sandbagging)
it removes having to put a bunch more subjective rules in place designed to prevent a bunch of sore losers from complaining
LBSU spanked FSU twice yesterday BTW and beat USC when it mattered - no whining please!!
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Post by NebraskaVBfan93 on Apr 29, 2012 11:38:25 GMT -5
It's all part of the game. What slot a coach wants to put each team in is simply part of the strategy. IMO there is certainly nothing unethical about it. All coaches have the same options. The exact same thing happens in scholastic tennis and even in the USTA leagues I've played in. Sometimes it pays off. Sometimes it backfires.
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Post by mozie on Apr 29, 2012 11:52:55 GMT -5
I don't believe it's sandbagging - it's strategy. The ultimate goal is to win the competition, so you have to put forward your teams that will give you the best chance to win the overall competition.
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Post by geddyleemarvin on Apr 29, 2012 15:01:42 GMT -5
If it's considered a legit "strategy," Why are there so many rules aimed at preventing it? In tennis, the NCAA, USTA and every local league have anti-sandbagging rules.
If you sandbag your handicap in golf, you'll be banned from playing that tournament again (Pro-ams like Pebble Beach and the Bob Hope have regularly kicked out amateurs who fudged their handicaps, as one example).
Beach volleyball organizations, like CBVA, have anti-sandbagging rules.
Why? Because it's considered unethical and against every principle of competitive sports. You play your best against their best. Where's the honor in deliberately manipulating the competition to ensure you play a clearly inferior opponent? Anyone who's played serious beach knows it's no fun to play a couple of A's when you're a AAA, and pummeling them doesn't prove anything.
I don't know if there really is a perfect solution - The AVCA or NCAA can't dictate to a coach what his best lineup is, obviously. I think the only thing to do is limit movement of pairs - If you put a pair in the #2 spot, you can only move them one spot up or down in subsequent matches. That still allows coaches to employ strategy without allowing wholesale sandbagging (like dropping your #1 to the #4 spot etc). I don't really know what else could be done that wouldn't overly restrict the ability of coaches to, well, coach.
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Post by crawdaddy on Apr 29, 2012 17:58:33 GMT -5
If there are no rules in place that prevent a coach from puttting his teams in whatever spots he wants, then there is nothing improper about what LBSU or any other team did with their lineups. If you are concerned about sandbagging then there has to be rules in place that prevent it - you can't just tell coaches, "please don't do it." Coaches have the right, if not the duty, to do whatever will maximize their team's chance of winning as long as it's within the rules.
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Post by BeachbytheBay on Apr 29, 2012 18:19:05 GMT -5
If there are no rules in place that prevent a coach from puttting his teams in whatever spots he wants, then there is nothing improper about what LBSU or any other team did with their lineups. If you are concerned about sandbagging then there has to be rules in place that prevent it - you can't just tell coaches, "please don't do it." Coaches have the right, if not the duty, to do whatever will maximize their team's chance of winning as long as it's within the rules. again, another back-handed slap at Long Beach State, because that's the only specific team called out. more whining, have some cheese with it. face it Long Beach is better and deeper than Florida State, USC, and every team other than Pepperdine - and showed they have the one of the top two pairs in the country. enough with the bashing - Florida State lost - get over it this whole 'sand-bagging' junk basically has shown the BCS big boys (FSU & USC) to be nothing but cry-babys. get over it, you just weren't that good!! Congratulations to Pepperdine, dominating all year. Long Beach was the only team to come close to pushing them.
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Post by crawdaddy on Apr 29, 2012 18:58:10 GMT -5
If there are no rules in place that prevent a coach from puttting his teams in whatever spots he wants, then there is nothing improper about what LBSU or any other team did with their lineups. If you are concerned about sandbagging then there has to be rules in place that prevent it - you can't just tell coaches, "please don't do it." Coaches have the right, if not the duty, to do whatever will maximize their team's chance of winning as long as it's within the rules. again, another back-handed slap at Long Beach State, because that's the only specific team called out. more whining, have some cheese with it. face it Long Beach is better and deeper than Florida State, USC, and every team other than Pepperdine - and showed they have the one of the top two pairs in the country. enough with the bashing - Florida State lost - get over it this whole 'sand-bagging' junk basically has shown the BCS big boys (FSU & USC) to be nothing but cry-babys. get over it, you just weren't that good!! Congratulations to Pepperdine, dominating all year. Long Beach was the only team to come close to pushing them. Dude, I have no idea what LBSU or any other team did with their lineups. There was no "back-handed slap" at the Beach in my post. The Beach rocks, but you are a total idiot.
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Post by tinman2 on Apr 29, 2012 19:11:14 GMT -5
"The Beach rocks, but you are a total idiot."
You hit the nail on the head, with that observation. This idiot is talking about the BCS in his comments, like that has anything to do with volleyball.
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Post by tinman2 on Apr 29, 2012 19:17:39 GMT -5
I don't see anything wrong with moving teams up or down to give you the best chance to win a match. Good strategy requires coaches to use the rules in place at any competition to assure your team scores the most points. In all sports coaches look for the best matchups to give their team the advantage.
As the original poster suggested the best way to prevent sandbagging is to award more points for #1,#2 and #3 than for #4 and #5. This would reward teams that don't drop their better teams down.
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Post by BeachbytheBay on Apr 29, 2012 19:26:54 GMT -5
I don't see anything wrong with moving teams up or down to give you the best chance to win a match. Good strategy requires coaches to use the rules in place at any competition to assure your team scores the most points. In all sports coaches look for the best matchups to give their team the advantage. As the original poster suggested the best way to prevent sandbagging is to award more points for #1,#2 and #3 than for #4 and #5. This would reward teams that don't drop their better teams down. I'm a total idiot?? Awarding more points for #1, then #2, and so on down the line-up. Now that's idiotic!! Totally devalues the importance of having depth on a team. Why not just have each school represented by one pair. I've proposed the only solution that prevents 'sand-bagging'. Every pair plays every pair on the opposing team. That is the only way to do it and remove all subjectivity. Weighted point system - now that would be idiotic. Sheesh. No other sport uses or would use such an idiotic point system.
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Post by mikegarrison on Apr 29, 2012 19:55:56 GMT -5
You hit the nail on the head, with that observation. This idiot is talking abou the BCS in his comments, like that has anything to do with volleyball. BCS -> $$$ and $$$ -> wins. Just look at indoor volleyball, where teams like Pepperdine and LBSU used to be dominant. As the sport got a higher and higher profile it also got more expensive. Now it's Pac-12 and B1G and big money schools like Texas dominating the NCAA indoor game. Sand VB will go that way eventually, if it becomes a big enough NCAA sport.
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Post by beachvolleymike on Apr 29, 2012 23:05:51 GMT -5
I don't see anything wrong with moving teams up or down to give you the best chance to win a match. Good strategy requires coaches to use the rules in place at any competition to assure your team scores the most points. In all sports coaches look for the best matchups to give their team the advantage. As the original poster suggested the best way to prevent sandbagging is to award more points for #1,#2 and #3 than for #4 and #5. This would reward teams that don't drop their better teams down. I'm a total idiot?? Awarding more points for #1, then #2, and so on down the line-up. Now that's idiotic!! Totally devalues the importance of having depth on a team. Why not just have each school represented by one pair. I've proposed the only solution that prevents 'sand-bagging'. Every pair plays every pair on the opposing team. That is the only way to do it and remove all subjectivity. Weighted point system - now that would be idiotic. Sheesh. No other sport uses or would use such an idiotic point system. The negativity is killing me! If the point system is set up correctly it could work to push coaches into seeding teams correctly. Maybe 20, 18, 15, 11, and 6 pts or some amount that gives more weight to the higher teams. What's wrong with that? (For the sake of discussion...and inevitably getting a certain someone's panties in a bunch). Limiting the mobility of pairs is the easiest rule to enforce I guess. Fans don't want to count points. Keep it simple. Sent from my MB860 using ProBoards
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Post by mikegarrison on Apr 30, 2012 14:14:21 GMT -5
If the point system is set up correctly it could work to push coaches into seeding teams correctly. Maybe 20, 18, 15, 11, and 6 pts or some amount that gives more weight to the higher teams. What's wrong with that? (For the sake of discussion...and inevitably getting a certain someone's panties in a bunch). Ive got an idea. Lets have each of the five matches worth 10 points, but whichever team finds the Golden Snitch buried in the sand gets 150 points.
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