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Post by Murina on Apr 16, 2014 1:34:09 GMT -5
Resources? For all its flaws as far as producing top flight players, the NCAA has tremendous resources!
Why have the men won gold and the women haven't? I have a few thoughts, but first I would point out that the women have played in the same number of Olympic finals in the same span. They haven't won any, but they really haven't been far away. Since 1983: Men 3 gold, 1 bronze; Women 3 silver, 1 bronze. Both teams have also lost a bronze in that time frame.
The men had the best player in the world on their team in his prime. The women kicked the best player in the world (arguably) off the team for her prime years. The confluence of Misty May and Mick Haley was bad timing. The USA never dove deeply into the pharmaceutical battle that was being waged in the 80's and 90's. That definitely played more of a role in womens volleyball than mens.
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Post by ja on Apr 16, 2014 7:16:03 GMT -5
I pose a question to the group: is the fact that most USAV regions/clubs are focus more on making a profit vs growing volleyball a cause for our lackluster forage into 10-14 age groups? Another question: Several of the countries mentioned (excluding Russia) are not typically known for their height. Does this mean Volleyball because the sport of choice for females and males vs basketball? Basketball still being the leading sport for girls in the US, and I believe a top 2 for boys. The answer is quiet simple - YES! This actually should be a huge separate thread, but we discussed this couple years ago, if I am not mistaken. Just check how many college coaches moved to clubs lately, while still coaching at the college. Better money, less hustle! It would be also very interesting to compare season longevity and prices for different regions.
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Post by ja on Apr 16, 2014 7:25:29 GMT -5
Resources? What pro leagues do we have for men and women in the US? As opposed to Brazil, Russia, Turkey, Thailand... Michael Phelps was discovered young to have the physical qualities that are found in great swimmers. And he stuck with it. Many others do not. We never hear about them. One person dominating an individual sport does not mean a country is dominant. Women's tennis was dominated by the US for a little while. Well, actually, by 2 sisters. And a couple other US tennis players won a major here and there. An individual sport dominated by a couple of people does not make a country dominant. Men's tennis was dominated by the US by McEnroe and Connors, but only them. And not really dominated. Borg, Lendl, and many others won as well. Then Sampras and Agassi came along, but again, many others not from the US were winning too. An individual sport dominated... A case could be made for Australia being the most dominant country in men's tennis, mostly attributed to Laver, Rosewall, Newcombe, Emerson, Stolle. But not anymore. I think the bigger question is why with all of the programs for women/girls vs men/boys in the US, why does the US men win Gold 3 out of 8, and women win Gold 0 out of 8? Perfect storm of talent? Timing? Sure, maybe that would not be the case if Beach VB was available in 84 and 88 for Men, or if Kerri and Misty played indoor. But the same could be said of Brazil, China, Russia, Cuba... The strange thing is that on man's side we have 47 combined programs for DI and DII while on women's side more then 330 DI only programs. So for man's we have around 150 scholarships and 3 gold medals while for women's we have around 5000 scholarships and 0 gold medals. Yes most of our boys will play professionally in Europe, Asia and Latin America. 50-60 women's will also play in the top leagues around the world. I hope Karch will bring his luck and desire to win into women's NT to get us first GOLD!
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Post by spikeninja on Apr 16, 2014 13:24:48 GMT -5
I'm not a big believer in patting ourselves on the back and hanging our hat on a handful of successes as justication that we are doing it right. While all the responses have validity, the one thing I would like to point out is the differential in resources that we as a country possess versus the resources of other countries. It's hard to believe we are not completely dominant, not just "doing ok". Some of our success could be attributed to a perfect storm of talent or simply timing. Take Michael Phelps for example. Did our swimming development programs magically just produce him, or is he genetically gifted athlete who also possessed a work ethic to maximize his talent? Men's USA tennis at one point was dominant in the world, now its an afterthought. If there is a trend of success, those trends cannot and should not be falsely attributed to, "we are doing things pretty well, just look at the results" because it could be reason completely unrelated. If you look at the resources of Thailand, this video is impressive. Considering all the athletic talent to draw from, programs, coach education, technology and investment we have vs. what Thailand has, we BETTER be completely dominant, not just doing ok. I think whoever posted this is making the point, this is pretty darn good and we could learn something. And I agree, considering its freaking Thailand! No disrespect intended. But aren't we completely dominant over Thailand in volleyball in adult events that matter ? Are we really concerned about results in international 11 and under competitions ? yes we are...but is that because we are doing it right? Or because we have an advantage on almost every facet of sports....finances, resources, population base, genetic disposition, culture, etc... My point is with our advantages we SHOULD be dominant. If we have all the advantages and they have none, how can THEY produce THIS? That is my point. With the deck stacked against them, they can still produce this. Perhaps THEY are doing things right, they just don't have the tools at the "events that matter" to get the same results. Doesn't mean they are doing it wrong, and certainly doesn't mean we are doing it right. There is always something to learn and improve on.
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Post by spikeninja on Apr 16, 2014 13:40:49 GMT -5
Resources? What pro leagues do we have for men and women in the US? As opposed to Brazil, Russia, Turkey, Thailand... Michael Phelps was discovered young to have the physical qualities that are found in great swimmers. And he stuck with it. Many others do not. We never hear about them. One person dominating an individual sport does not mean a country is dominant. Women's tennis was dominated by the US for a little while. Well, actually, by 2 sisters. And a couple other US tennis players won a major here and there. An individual sport dominated by a couple of people does not make a country dominant. Men's tennis was dominated by the US by McEnroe and Connors, but only them. And not really dominated. Borg, Lendl, and many others won as well. Then Sampras and Agassi came along, but again, many others not from the US were winning too. An individual sport dominated... A case could be made for Australia being the most dominant country in men's tennis, mostly attributed to Laver, Rosewall, Newcombe, Emerson, Stolle. But not anymore. I think the bigger question is why with all of the programs for women/girls vs men/boys in the US, why does the US men win Gold 3 out of 8, and women win Gold 0 out of 8? Perfect storm of talent? Timing? Sure, maybe that would not be the case if Beach VB was available in 84 and 88 for Men, or if Kerri and Misty played indoor. But the same could be said of Brazil, China, Russia, Cuba... All good points. I agree whole heartedly. A dominanting a sport individually has little to with its development system. But when it comes to the Chinese taking both gold and silver in diving, or Germany taking two medals in bobsled, or Jamaica producing the top sprinters in addition to Usain Bolt, that is dominance. Look at the era with Agassi and Sampras, but don't forget there were several top 20 men's players in that era behind those two. The Michael Chang's of tennis that challenged and occasionally won. Not high profile. Look at the eastern block women dominating tennis, the Williams sisters do not constitute USA tennis being a better development system than what is going on in Eastern Europe. 0-8 is compelling. If Karch was the best player in the world but not coached by Beal, or surrounded by Stork, Buck, Ctvrtlik, Timmons, Luyties, etc....would he have been enough to win back to back gold? What if it wasn't Dunphy to follow Beal in Seoul? We would be looking at 1 out of 8 on the men side. A lot of things have to go right. It's not just the development system. Which is why I don't propose that we justify ourselves by the end result. It might have nothing to do with it.
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Post by planetasia01 on Apr 16, 2014 14:24:05 GMT -5
I go back to my previous point that this video is pretty damn impressive considering this age group, and my original intention (admittingly trolling) of (re)posting this video is to show-up to those people that have the mindset that younger players just can't perform certain volleyball skill sets, and that we should lower our expectations. I think this is the greatest detriment to large scale development at the grassroots level. My personal interest is not top tier, Olympic talent but growing the sport and general level of play in all facets and codes of volleyball.
Phaedrus brought up the very valid point regarding cultural differences regarding training, but whoever makes an excuse that 13 years guys/girls can't perform a certain skill, I'd definitely show them this video as a counter. I've already shown my 12 yr old nephew.
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Post by Sidd Finch on Apr 16, 2014 15:38:20 GMT -5
This is the 2013 12U USAV National Championship match. Edit the best rallies together, put exciting music on top, and you'd have a pretty entertaining video.
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Post by vbman100 on Apr 17, 2014 7:12:16 GMT -5
11:05 mark. Priceless.
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Post by oldvbguy on Apr 17, 2014 14:39:31 GMT -5
I found it interesting watching the Thailand video that the setter bump set everything. Did not watch it all but never saw a single set done with the hands. Obviously trained to set that way but very different from here.
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Post by volleytragic on Apr 18, 2014 5:11:46 GMT -5
The thing that I find interesting is in the Thai video we don't really see a lot of specialization. This is a good thing I believe. In Brazil a number of their Junior Competitions have rules that don't allow libero's and that there must be 2 subs at the end of each set, and those subs must remain on for the whole set. Encouraging players who can play in all six rotations has got to be good for the sport. Telling a 12 year-old that she is too small to play at the net, but your a really good passer (libero) is not great for the game. You got to teach kids to understand the game and play with freedom. Not seeing it in lower age competitions here.
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