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Post by springs on May 5, 2014 12:24:30 GMT -5
The R2 should be watching the net and the centerline. If the R1 didn't see it, he/she should go with the linesperson. If the linesperson looks unsure, call her over and ask her if she is sure. Just want to touch on a few things...It may sound like I'm on a soapbox but bare with me.. First, The R2 watching the net and centerline only is a start, especially if you're working with a junior player. You shouldn't restrict what you're watching, especially if there is nothing happening at the net. I would guess at the youngest levels (10-11-12) blocking doesn't take a huge priority in the skillset, so watching the net as teams send over downballs or freeballs from the backrow doesn't help much. The R2 is another set of eyes. You should never discount what information they have to offer, especially if the play was very close to them. It's a no-win situation no matter how you look at it. There are times when the R1 is at the mercy of 12 year old line judges. We can't see everything...we try to, but there may be 1 play we're screened/bad angle/whatever. If you overrule the LJ, coaches/parents will start the "Why do we have linejudges if you're just going to make the call?" If you stick with the call, they say "Oh come on! You can overrule that!"
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Post by volleytology on May 5, 2014 12:34:42 GMT -5
The R2 should be watching the net and the centerline. If the R1 didn't see it, he/she should go with the linesperson. If the linesperson looks unsure, call her over and ask her if she is sure. Just want to touch on a few things...It may sound like I'm on a soapbox but bare with me.. First, The R2 watching the net and centerline only is a start, especially if you're working with a junior player. You shouldn't restrict what you're watching, especially if there is nothing happening at the net. I would guess at the youngest levels (10-11-12) blocking doesn't take a huge priority in the skillset, so watching the net as teams send over downballs or freeballs from the backrow doesn't help much. The R2 is another set of eyes. You should never discount what information they have to offer, especially if the play was very close to them. It's a no-win situation no matter how you look at it. There are times when the R1 is at the mercy of 12 year old line judges. We can't see everything...we try to, but there may be 1 play we're screened/bad angle/whatever. If you overrule the LJ, coaches/parents will start the "Why do we have linejudges if you're just going to make the call?" If you stick with the call, they say "Oh come on! You can overrule that!" Sorry, dude... 99% of the time you can see the call--Make it ! Regardless of what the 12 year calls and regardless of what the parents yell at you. In honor of Cinco De Mayo; get some cojones
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moody
Banned
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Post by moody on May 5, 2014 12:43:47 GMT -5
Just remembered that this happened when DD was playing 13's so I guess it doesn't apply to this thread. "we" aren't comparing anything. I was making the point that negative memories are strong. You really are "moody". comparing the death of a father to a bad call in a 12's tournament is hardly a point.
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Post by dgo on May 5, 2014 12:55:21 GMT -5
Just remembered that this happened when DD was playing 13's so I guess it doesn't apply to this thread. "we" aren't comparing anything. I was making the point that negative memories are strong. You really are "moody". comparing the death of a father to a bad call in a 12's tournament is hardly a point. In other words (if I may elaborate on your comment): a call that goes against you when you're 12 should not be considered a "negative memory" in the grand scheme of life. It's simply a part of life. I think the "teaching moment" of that situation is that bad calls happen and we should work hard to avoid them when we're working and to get over them when we're playing.
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Post by volleyjeep on May 5, 2014 13:02:15 GMT -5
comparing the death of a father to a bad call in a 12's tournament is hardly a point. In other words (if I may elaborate on your comment): a call that goes against you when you're 12 should not be considered a "negative memory" in the grand scheme of life. It's simply a part of life. I think the "teaching moment" of that situation is that bad calls happen and we should work hard to avoid them when we're working and to get over them when we're playing. Well said.
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Post by rockhopper on May 5, 2014 13:08:17 GMT -5
These were very competitive girls who worked hard in practice week in and week out and flew half way across the country to try to win a tournament. You go to qualifiers to win. Being disappointed about a bad call is normal and it was a negative memory. This crowd HATED losing. Coaches generally like that in their players.
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Post by dgo on May 5, 2014 13:15:13 GMT -5
These were very competitive girls who worked hard in practice week in and week out and flew half way across the country to try to win a tournament. You go to qualifiers to win. Being disappointed about a bad call is normal and it was a negative memory. This crowd HATED losing. Coaches generally like that in their players. Honestly, I can't disagree too much with what you've said here. But, I would add, holding onto that negative memory for 10 years might not be quite so normal. Also, coaches generally like players who can forget about that last point and look toward the next (as I suspect all of the girls you're talking about did and have).
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Post by springs on May 5, 2014 13:25:07 GMT -5
Just want to touch on a few things...It may sound like I'm on a soapbox but bare with me.. First, The R2 watching the net and centerline only is a start, especially if you're working with a junior player. You shouldn't restrict what you're watching, especially if there is nothing happening at the net. I would guess at the youngest levels (10-11-12) blocking doesn't take a huge priority in the skillset, so watching the net as teams send over downballs or freeballs from the backrow doesn't help much. The R2 is another set of eyes. You should never discount what information they have to offer, especially if the play was very close to them. It's a no-win situation no matter how you look at it. There are times when the R1 is at the mercy of 12 year old line judges. We can't see everything...we try to, but there may be 1 play we're screened/bad angle/whatever. If you overrule the LJ, coaches/parents will start the "Why do we have linejudges if you're just going to make the call?" If you stick with the call, they say "Oh come on! You can overrule that!" Sorry, dude... 99% of the time you can see the call--Make it ! Regardless of what the 12 year calls and regardless of what the parents yell at you. In honor of Cinco De Mayo; get some cojones Dude, you're absolutely right about 99% of the time...but what happens in the 1%? This is a case of that 1%. I stated what it's like from the stand...do you know what it's like in that 1%? I reiterate - the original post was a question for the refs. 3 pages worth of replies and how many of them are from referees?
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Post by volleytology on May 5, 2014 13:40:06 GMT -5
Sorry, dude... 99% of the time you can see the call--Make it ! Regardless of what the 12 year calls and regardless of what the parents yell at you. In honor of Cinco De Mayo; get some cojones Dude, you're absolutely right about 99% of the time...but what happens in the 1%? This is a case of that 1%. I stated what it's like from the stand...do you know what it's like in that 1%? I reiterate - the original post was a question for the refs. 3 pages worth of replies and how many of them are from referees? My point is that up ref's defer WAY to much on close calls to 12 year olds instead of calling what THEY see and 99% they DO see it. If they literally can not see the call (which is extremely rare), they have to rely on the linesmen; but again, that really only should happen very, very infrequently. If I'm a parent bitching about a bad line call and the up official says he/she literally didn't see it, I'd be ok with that. The problem is up ref's defer on almost EVERY call
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Post by tinman2 on May 5, 2014 14:35:33 GMT -5
For the record, the ball was clearly out (6-8inches, or so), but the linesperson missed the call, as 11 year olds often do. (I never give these girls a hard time and we always teach our players to respect the call, even if it's wrong). Since the R2 was holding up her hands that the ball was out, I took a timeout and sent my captain over to ask R1, if a replay was in order. Usually I wouldn't do this, just play on and accept the bad call, however we were playing a stronger team and were on the verge of an upset...my girls were playing their hearts out and I felt like I owed it to them to ask the ref what proper protocol was. (The fact that it was a regional qualifier also added to the importance of wanting the proper call to be made). The ref told my captain he had to stick to the lineperson's call. Missed calls happen...but his explanation after the match that he couldn't trust the R2 was interesting...you can't trust the R2, but you can trust the linesperson?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2014 15:13:47 GMT -5
The R2 should be watching the net and the centerline. If the R1 didn't see it, he/she should go with the linesperson. If the linesperson looks unsure, call her over and ask her if she is sure. Just want to touch on a few things...It may sound like I'm on a soapbox but bare with me.. First, The R2 watching the net and centerline only is a start, especially if you're working with a junior player. You shouldn't restrict what you're watching, especially if there is nothing happening at the net. I would guess at the youngest levels (10-11-12) blocking doesn't take a huge priority in the skillset, so watching the net as teams send over downballs or freeballs from the backrow doesn't help much. The R2 is another set of eyes. You should never discount what information they have to offer, especially if the play was very close to them. It's a no-win situation no matter how you look at it. There are times when the R1 is at the mercy of 12 year old line judges. We can't see everything...we try to, but there may be 1 play we're screened/bad angle/whatever. If you overrule the LJ, coaches/parents will start the "Why do we have linejudges if you're just going to make the call?" If you stick with the call, they say "Oh come on! You can overrule that!" an r1 never "overrules" a line judge. the r1 uses line judges to help her/him make the calls. it is still the r1's call. an r2 may see a ball in or out -- and may even be able to help -- but it's not his/her responsibility and i'd be worried he/she isn't paying attention to things that are his/her responsibility.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2014 15:14:37 GMT -5
For the record, the ball was clearly out (6-8inches, or so), but the linesperson missed the call, as 11 year olds often do. (I never give these girls a hard time and we always teach our players to respect the call, even if it's wrong). Since the R2 was holding up her hands that the ball was out, I took a timeout and sent my captain over to ask R1, if a replay was in order. Usually I wouldn't do this, just play on and accept the bad call, however we were playing a stronger team and were on the verge of an upset...my girls were playing their hearts out and I felt like I owed it to them to ask the ref what proper protocol was. (The fact that it was a regional qualifier also added to the importance of wanting the proper call to be made). The ref told my captain he had to stick to the lineperson's call. Missed calls happen...but his explanation after the match that he couldn't trust the R2 was interesting...you can't trust the R2, but you can trust the linesperson? sorry, but 6 inches out and the r1 couldn't see it out? that's pretty bad reffing. it's not like he/she could fall back on "it was hit too fast" either.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2014 15:28:47 GMT -5
I reiterate - the original post was a question for the refs. 3 pages worth of replies and how many of them are from referees? define "referee."
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Post by springs on May 5, 2014 15:35:32 GMT -5
I reiterate - the original post was a question for the refs. 3 pages worth of replies and how many of them are from referees? define "referee." I'll bite. Since we're talking about a particular play at a regional bid/qualifier, USAV certified is a good place to start. And it's semantics to say a referee doesn't overrule officials because it's their call to begin with. If a line judge signals "out" and the referee does not agree, he/she overrules the line judges call and says its in.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2014 15:37:48 GMT -5
it's not only not semantics, it's important. as stated by another poster, too many r1's pass off this responsibility to the line judges. they are helpers. they are not the ones in control of the match.
and you are wrong. the line judge's call does not stand on its own, so how is it "overruled"?
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