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Post by vbnerd on Jul 3, 2014 9:15:50 GMT -5
Our volleyball developmental system works very well in this country; really no reason to change anything. As far as soccer, we simply don't have our best athletes choosing to play the sport, if we did, we'd dominate soccer also. However, with the recent concussion and injury fallout in football and baseball fading in popularity, I could envision more and more elite young athletes choosing to play soccer (or lacrosse) in the future though. Our YNT and JNT teams, both genders, have NEVER won a World Championship. The Boys JNT finish 4th, once, YNT nada. The girls teams have each finished 4th twice and the YNT was 2nd last year, so there is promise but nothing to be excited about. The MNT won two olympics and one World Cup in '85. One gold medal at home, when the USSR, Cuba, Poland and Bulgaria withdrew after qualifying. China we came out of nowhere when the coach's family was attacked and one killed, creating what was reported to be about the most emotionally charged event imaginable. The WNT has never won an Olympic gold, never won a World Cup. Furthermore, in the gym for the WNT we have multiple players from SPRI, Northern Lights, and Encinitas Wave. There are multiple players from Texas, USC, Washington, Stanford, Nebraska and Penn State. Kim Hill and Carly Lloyd are the only players of consequence right now without ties to these 3 clubs and/or these 6 colleges. And that's an improvement, it used to be mostly Long Beach, Hawaii and Stanford. What is the women's development plan? From Rick to Mick and hope they can stick? In the Pac 12 we trust? You don't see a reason to change anything, I don't know that there is anything there to protect. Maybe regional schools aren't worth the investment. Maybe we are too big to have a "national style" but its still worth having a conversation about how to grow, expand and improve volleyball in the US.
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Post by volleytology on Jul 3, 2014 9:31:34 GMT -5
Our volleyball developmental system works very well in this country; really no reason to change anything. As far as soccer, we simply don't have our best athletes choosing to play the sport, if we did, we'd dominate soccer also. However, with the recent concussion and injury fallout in football and baseball fading in popularity, I could envision more and more elite young athletes choosing to play soccer (or lacrosse) in the future though. Our YNT and JNT teams, both genders, have NEVER won a World Championship. The Boys JNT finish 4th, once, YNT nada. The girls teams have each finished 4th twice and the YNT was 2nd last year, so there is promise but nothing to be excited about. The MNT won two olympics and one World Cup in '85. One gold medal at home, when the USSR, Cuba, Poland and Bulgaria withdrew after qualifying. China we came out of nowhere when the coach's family was attacked and one killed, creating what was reported to be about the most emotionally charged event imaginable. The WNT has never won an Olympic gold, never won a World Cup. Furthermore, in the gym for the WNT we have multiple players from SPRI, Northern Lights, and Encinitas Wave. There are multiple players from Texas, USC, Washington, Stanford, Nebraska and Penn State. Kim Hill and Carly Lloyd are the only players of consequence right now without ties to these 3 clubs and/or these 6 colleges. And that's an improvement, it used to be mostly Long Beach, Hawaii and Stanford. What is the women's development plan? From Rick to Mick and hope they can stick? In the Pac 12 we trust? You don't see a reason to change anything, I don't know that there is anything there to protect. Maybe regional schools aren't worth the investment. Maybe we are too big to have a "national style" but its still worth having a conversation about how to grow, expand and improve volleyball in the US. Having the conversation is fine, but having a "national style" is silly. Our system produces elite, high level players and our mens and women's teams both legitimately compete for championships at the Olympjcs and other world events all WITHOUT a pro league ! I would think other countries would be more interested in copying us !
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Post by Phaedrus on Jul 3, 2014 9:39:57 GMT -5
“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”
― Henry Ford
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Post by volleytology on Jul 3, 2014 9:41:49 GMT -5
“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” ― Henry Ford What specific changes would you make to our current "system" Mr. Ford ?
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Post by Phaedrus on Jul 3, 2014 10:07:06 GMT -5
I don't know, that is why I posed the question.
As vbnerd has listed, our accomplishments in volleyball are not anything to ignore, we have accomplished much, but we are missing the big prizes.
On the women's side, we have taken advantage of the large population and worked with the decentralized club/college system. We can't use the same argument as the USA men, that the best athletes play every sport BUT volleyball. In women's volleyball we lose players to basketball, soccer, and softball, but the impact of those sports are not as impactful as those from football, basketball, baseball, and soccer on the men's side. The amount of scholarship available also affects the men's side more.
As with all things, I think it is important to investigate the other systems and ways of doing things if nothing else, but to critically asses what we have done and try to align that with our goals. There is nothing worse than being self satisfied. The responses that I have read, with a few exceptions have fallen along the lines of: we do nothing wrong, leave it alone. I am just not satisfied with that. I think we need to examine what we do critically without resorting to: it ain't broke, don't mess with it. Successful enterprises mess with their process all the time, in a logical and well thought out manner.
I don't personally think going to a strictly European club system will succeed in the US, too much rugged individualism in the national character, And the attraction of being the local high school hero is too ingrained in our thinking. BUT, I do also think that the evolution of club system as we see them now is working towards the detriment of the players and the game. I have gotten in discussions with others about this and the response is along the lines of Russ Roses: we are not in the business of college/club/high school volleyball to create a pipeline for the national team. If that is the case then don't expect things to change drastically because we are not adjusting to the evolution of the sport. When USA basketball started losing in Olympic competition, they started to lobby David Stern and the NBA about letting the best of the best, the NBA players, play. You may argue everything having to do with the pros playing in the Olympics, but you can't argue with the results. The point is, someone at USA Basketball saw a problem, and they were willing to start over with their selection system and pool.
It seems that we aren't willing to make the changes or have the means to change it, so we are nibbling at the edges of greatness.
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Post by volleytology on Jul 3, 2014 10:17:11 GMT -5
The problem is we are the only country in the world (maybe Canada in a few sports) that puts such a humongous emphasis on collegiate sport. Russ is right, his job at his university is to win national championships. Kids grow up playing sports with the goal of having their education paid for through sport. That isn't the case in any other country. Until the US collegiate athletic system shuts down, OUR system is in place. I would disagree that we are nibbling at greatness; I believe on the international level in mens and women's volleyball, we are great--under the realities of our current system. My only concern is with the coaches and leaders in charge and philosophies espoused at the national team level.
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Post by vbnerd on Jul 3, 2014 10:17:34 GMT -5
Having the conversation is fine, but having a "national style" is silly. Our system produces elite, high level players and our mens and women's teams both legitimately compete for championships at the Olympjcs and other world events all WITHOUT a pro league ! I would think other countries would be more interested in copying us ! I guess part of my trouble is that I don't really see a "system" as much as thousands of monkey's banging on typewriters and when one of them produces a word USAV clips it and tries to make a sentence from the clippings. What do you see as our "system" that could be copied elsewhere? If Volleyball Canada came to you to implement the best aspects of the American "System" what are you telling them to do?
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Post by volleytology on Jul 3, 2014 10:19:47 GMT -5
Having the conversation is fine, but having a "national style" is silly. Our system produces elite, high level players and our mens and women's teams both legitimately compete for championships at the Olympjcs and other world events all WITHOUT a pro league ! I would think other countries would be more interested in copying us ! I guess part of my trouble is that I don't really see a "system" as much as thousands of monkey's banging on typewriters and when one of them produces a word USAV clips it and tries to make a sentence from the clippings. What do you see as our "system" that could be copied elsewhere? If Volleyball Canada came to you to implement the best aspects of the American "System" what are you telling them to do? Please read my post above
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Post by vbnerd on Jul 3, 2014 10:26:06 GMT -5
Yes, you like that we produce elite players. But if you think other countries should consider copying us, what do you want them to copy? You can't tell them "You should produce high level players" so are you telling them to copy The High Performance Program? Gold Medal Squared? the IMPACT and CAP programs? The qualifier system? That we use 12 subs in our youth levels? That we largely tie sports to our education system? That we have football to pay for doctors and trainers and coaches, etc for our school based programs?
What are you telling them to copy from us? What do you believe is driving our production of high level players?
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Post by volleytology on Jul 3, 2014 10:36:41 GMT -5
Yes, you like that we produce elite players. But if you think other countries should consider copying us, what do you want them to copy? You can't tell them "You should produce high level players" so are you telling them to copy The High Performance Program? Gold Medal Squared? the IMPACT and CAP programs? The qualifier system? That we use 12 subs in our youth levels? That we largely tie sports to our education system? That we have football to pay for doctors and trainers and coaches, etc for our school based programs? What are you telling them to copy from us? Our depth is our strength; but I also believe our country's appreciation and respect for female athletes is second to none in the world. I also do believe our current system of going from youth club to collegiate to USA is a very good stepping stone system that identifies our best and could be copied by other countries.
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Post by loki on Jul 3, 2014 10:47:59 GMT -5
“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” ― Henry Ford Without all that bouncing up and down...and not so much poo.
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Post by vbnerd on Jul 3, 2014 11:23:15 GMT -5
Yes, you like that we produce elite players. But if you think other countries should consider copying us, what do you want them to copy? You can't tell them "You should produce high level players" so are you telling them to copy The High Performance Program? Gold Medal Squared? the IMPACT and CAP programs? The qualifier system? That we use 12 subs in our youth levels? That we largely tie sports to our education system? That we have football to pay for doctors and trainers and coaches, etc for our school based programs? What are you telling them to copy from us? Our depth is our strength; but I also believe our country's appreciation and respect for female athletes is second to none in the world. I also do believe our current system of going from youth club to collegiate to USA is a very good stepping stone system that identifies our best and could be copied by other countries. Depth comes from having the 3rd largest population in the world and an economy that has enough extra that we do not need to be efficient. I think the title IX and the resulting investment has been huge for us in all women's sports in the US. A lot of countries just don't care about women. So far I agree with you on all of that. I think your reservations about the who and the how are what Phaedrus and I are looking at. Good is good, but great is better so what can we improve? This is something every club, every school and every coach should look at every year. The national teams and the organization behind them shouldn't be any different, and I think they probably do look at this stuff, thats where HP came from, the new premier league, moving the national team to Anaheim, etc. So what is the next step, big or small, to improve American volleyball? Anybody have an answer?
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Post by redbeard2008 on Jul 3, 2014 11:25:56 GMT -5
I'm not buying that everything is hunky-dory. Maybe for owners, administrators, and owners of for-profit clubs who're effectively running a lottery system, with college scholarships as the prizes. Any participation comparison between volleyball and basketball, for instance, will show they are demographically skewed in different directions. Basketball includes, volleyball excludes.
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Post by volleytology on Jul 3, 2014 11:37:09 GMT -5
I'm not buying that everything is hunky-dory. Maybe for owners, administrators, and owners of for-profit clubs who're effectively running a lottery system, with college scholarships as the prizes. Any participation comparison between volleyball and basketball, for instance, will show they are demographically skewed in different directions. Basketball includes, volleyball excludes. Who do think pays for all the aau travel for these "included" basketball players ? And why do you think they pay for that travel and representation ?
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Post by redbeard2008 on Jul 3, 2014 12:25:00 GMT -5
I'm not buying that everything is hunky-dory. Maybe for owners, administrators, and owners of for-profit clubs who're effectively running a lottery system, with college scholarships as the prizes. Any participation comparison between volleyball and basketball, for instance, will show they are demographically skewed in different directions. Basketball includes, volleyball excludes. Who do think pays for all the aau travel for these "included" basketball players ? And why do you think they pay for that travel and representation ? So? I'm just stating the obvious. I don't presume to know what the solutions are. More top-down money from USAV/USOC? More grassroots fund raising? Concentrate funding more at the elite level (see gymnastics)? It's partly a chicken and the egg scenario. You need to fund development to win gold, but nothing expands the talent pool like winning gold. Women's soccer has got over the hump, but men's soccer hasn't. Neither has women's volleyball.
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