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Post by volleytology on Jul 3, 2014 12:42:52 GMT -5
Who do think pays for all the aau travel for these "included" basketball players ? And why do you think they pay for that travel and representation ? So? I'm just stating the obvious. I don't presume to know what the solutions are. More top-down money from USAV/USOC? More grassroots fund raising? Concentrate funding more at the elite level (see gymnastics)? It's partly a chicken and the egg scenario. You need to fund development to win gold, but nothing expands the talent pool like winning gold. Women's soccer has got over the hump, but men's soccer hasn't. Neither has women's volleyball. The ONLY reason women's soccer won Gold and dominated early was that for years women were forbidden to play soccer in other countries. It was considered the male sport to only be played by males. Recently the rest of the world has begun funding women's soccer more vigorously and the US is not nearly as dominant. Same exact thing holds true for softball. Comparing women's and men's soccer is futile; it's apples and oranges. So to you, getting over the "hump" is winning a gold medal at the Olympics ? Our international competitive record without a pro league is astounding. And our men's program success should be an embarrassment to every other country.
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Post by volleytology on Jul 3, 2014 13:07:04 GMT -5
I do agree however that things can be better: 1. Adopt FIVB sub rules; create more all-around players 2. No libero until 15 and under 3. Do not have a tryout for Youth and Junior National teams, instead invite the best of the best from all corners of the US after doing year long evals at junior events 4. Do not allow college coaches to be involved in the selection of A2 teams; way to much politics in those selections 5. Make the club season Jan to June for all ages under 17 and have a separate championship for 18's in late April.
I do like how many more opportunities there are for USA related events overseas and at home now, along with the numerous pro opportunities for Anerican players. Without doing anything else, those professional experiences have greatly enhanced our National teams competitive levels.
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Post by redbeard2008 on Jul 3, 2014 13:14:37 GMT -5
So to you, getting over the "hump" is winning a gold medal at the Olympics? Once again, I'm only stating the obvious. Nothing expands the talent pool and participation more than winning gold, in that it seeds the dreams of little girls. (It also makes fundraising easier.) See women's gymnastics and soccer. Winning gold matters, especially in women's sports.
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Post by Phaedrus on Jul 3, 2014 13:33:39 GMT -5
If the theory about the abundance of talent is true, countries like Japan, Italy, Holland, Cuba, etc. shouldn't have a chance in the game. Countries like China, Russia, USA, and even India should be dominant in every sport, even while factoring in the erosion of talent in the USA from the major revenue sports. So there is something to figure out with the different systems.
One major issue in my mind is that volleyball has become an upper middle class game. There is a vast pool of talent who can not afford to get into the club volleyball cult in order to be identified and trained so that they can enter the national team pipeline. We are inadvertently removing a vast amount of talent from being considered for the national team. To be fair, there are some outstanding programs like the Starlings that work with kids and find ways for them to be trained and participate in volleyball, but by the time they are identified the window for accelerated learning and learning the game has gone by.
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Post by Phaedrus on Jul 3, 2014 13:41:53 GMT -5
I do agree however that things can be better: 1. Adopt FIVB sub rules; create more all-around players 2. No libero until 15 and under 3. Do not have a tryout for Youth and Junior National teams, instead invite the best of the best from all corners of the US after doing year long evals at junior events 4. Do not allow college coaches to be involved in the selection of A2 teams; way to much politics in those selections 5. Make the club season Jan to June for all ages under 17 and have a separate championship for 18's in late April. I do like how many more opportunities there are for USA related events overseas and at home now, along with the numerous pro opportunities for Anerican players. Without doing anything else, those professional experiences have greatly enhanced our National teams competitive levels. The major problem with 4) is that if you consider the most experienced and best coaches, most of them are in the collegiate ranks. By cutting them out, and I agree with the premise, you are also cutting out the most experienced trainers and evaluators of talent. 3) From my last comment, best of the best of people that we know, i.e. people who are already in the pipeline, we are missing a massive pool of talent because they can't afford to play club. 5) is a nice idea. Even June is a little late. I coached 18's this year, we started informally in December and got done in April. In addition, my team played a few adult tournaments and competed but got schooled by the more experienced players. Pro experience is beneficial, but you have to be discerning about which countries and which teams are the most beneficial in terms of training and experience.
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Post by volleytology on Jul 3, 2014 13:57:48 GMT -5
If the theory about the abundance of talent is true, countries like Japan, Italy, Holland, Cuba, etc. shouldn't have a chance in the game. Countries like China, Russia, USA, and even India should be dominant in every sport, even while factoring in the erosion of talent in the USA from the major revenue sports. So there is something to figure out with the different systems. One major issue in my mind is that volleyball has become an upper middle class game. There is a vast pool of talent who can not afford to get into the club volleyball cult in order to be identified and trained so that they can enter the national team pipeline. We are inadvertently removing a vast amount of talent from being considered for the national team. To be fair, there are some outstanding programs like the Starlings that work with kids and find ways for them to be trained and participate in volleyball, but by the time they are identified the window for accelerated learning and learning the game has gone by. I would argue that in the past quad the USA was second only to Brazil in international success. Italy, Japan, Cuba, China and even potentially Russia have fallen behind our A team and really have no excuse for that. Obviously our "system" is superior to theirs. Secondly, I disagree about the financial exclusionary nature of club volleyball. Starting's is a great program, but how many elite volleyball players has this program unearthed ? If a 6' tall athletic 11 year old athlete with an underprivileged background walks into any major club's facility in this country and says "I want to play volleyball", you better believe that club will "make it work". I don't think we're really missing out on many elite athletes who want to play volleyball. Most club directors are very aware of all the elite athletes in their areas, regardless of financial background.
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Post by queen bey on Jul 3, 2014 14:15:16 GMT -5
If the theory about the abundance of talent is true, countries like Japan, Italy, Holland, Cuba, etc. shouldn't have a chance in the game. Countries like China, Russia, USA, and even India should be dominant in every sport, even while factoring in the erosion of talent in the USA from the major revenue sports. So there is something to figure out with the different systems. One major issue in my mind is that volleyball has become an upper middle class game. There is a vast pool of talent who can not afford to get into the club volleyball cult in order to be identified and trained so that they can enter the national team pipeline. We are inadvertently removing a vast amount of talent from being considered for the national team. To be fair, there are some outstanding programs like the Starlings that work with kids and find ways for them to be trained and participate in volleyball, but by the time they are identified the window for accelerated learning and learning the game has gone by. I would argue that in the past quad the USA was second only to Brazil in international success. Italy, Japan, Cuba, China and even potentially Russia have fallen behind our A team and really have no excuse for that. Obviously our "system" is superior to theirs. Secondly, I disagree about the financial exclusionary nature of club volleyball. Starting's is a great program, but how many elite volleyball players has this program unearthed ? If a 6' tall athletic 11 year old athlete with an underprivileged background walks into any major club's facility in this country and says "I want to play volleyball", you better believe that club will "make it work". I don't think we're really missing out on many elite athletes who want to play volleyball. Most club directors are very aware of all the elite athletes in their areas, regardless of financial background. While I am not terribly familiar with the American club system, I don't agree with your second point at all. For one thing, very few 11 year olds are approaching club teams. Older girls who would be more likely to are already put at a disadvantage because they do not have the skills to even be a practice player with club teams, unless they are Akinrawdewo-type athletic. The problem is that volleyball is not a sport that makes itself seem inclusive to lower-income populations. In Ontario, the best club teams are always from Toronto and the GTA, Ottawa, and London, three of the biggest towns in the province. If volleyball really wants to compete with sports such as basketball and soccer to get the best female athletes, it's going to have to do a much better job in recruiting them from a young age.
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Post by Phaedrus on Jul 3, 2014 14:23:02 GMT -5
I would argue that in the past quad the USA was second only to Brazil in international success. Italy, Japan, Cuba, China and even potentially Russia have fallen behind our A team and really have no excuse for that. Obviously our "system" is superior to theirs. Secondly, I disagree about the financial exclusionary nature of club volleyball. Starting's is a great program, but how many elite volleyball players has this program unearthed ? If a 6' tall athletic 11 year old athlete with an underprivileged background walks into any major club's facility in this country and says "I want to play volleyball", you better believe that club will "make it work". I don't think we're really missing out on many elite athletes who want to play volleyball. Most club directors are very aware of all the elite athletes in their areas, regardless of financial background. Cuba and Russia have fallen behind because their economic system failed. The men's Olympic champ from London is Russia. I think they have recovered. The women's team was overly dependent on the stars who were trained in the latter stages of the communist sports school system. The Chinese women that took the gold were by and large women who were trained under the sports school system. The best players in China played for various provincial teams as well as the army teams. The training was built around government funded professional teams. They started their own pro leagues after the government got out of the professional volleyball business, and the selection/training part of the sports schools function has really been left up to the local government who has the will to continue the program. They are going through a transition and are trying to create a new way of doing things, much as what we are talking about, so they have gone through some tough times. The next quad is quite telling for China. It isn't obvious that our system is superior. What is obvious is that we are at a very high level, but not clearly superior. As for your argument on the economic disparity, you said: If a 6' tall athletic 11 year old athlete with an underprivileged background walks into any major club's facility in this country and says "I want to play volleyball", you better believe that club will "make it work". First of all, it is the kids who do not walk into the doors of the local elite volleyball club that I am talking about, they don't even know what a volleyball looks like, let along an elite volleyball club. Basketball coaches are out beating the bushes for them, and they are finding kids who show promise at a very young age, before it becomes obvious that they are talented. We see kids at 10 or so. They have kids who have gotten into basketball way before that, and are committed to basketball by the time we spot them, IF we spot them.
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Post by volleytology on Jul 3, 2014 14:26:21 GMT -5
I would argue that in the past quad the USA was second only to Brazil in international success. Italy, Japan, Cuba, China and even potentially Russia have fallen behind our A team and really have no excuse for that. Obviously our "system" is superior to theirs. Secondly, I disagree about the financial exclusionary nature of club volleyball. Starting's is a great program, but how many elite volleyball players has this program unearthed ? If a 6' tall athletic 11 year old athlete with an underprivileged background walks into any major club's facility in this country and says "I want to play volleyball", you better believe that club will "make it work". I don't think we're really missing out on many elite athletes who want to play volleyball. Most club directors are very aware of all the elite athletes in their areas, regardless of financial background. While I am not terribly familiar with the American club system, I don't agree with your second point at all. For one thing, very few 11 year olds are approaching club teams. Older girls who would be more likely to are already put at a disadvantage because they do not have the skills to even be a practice player with club teams, unless they are Akinrawdewo-type athletic. The problem is that volleyball is not a sport that makes itself seem inclusive to lower-income populations. In Ontario, the best club teams are always from Toronto and the GTA, Ottawa, and London, three of the biggest towns in the province. If volleyball really wants to compete with sports such as basketball and soccer to get the best female athletes, it's going to have to do a much better job in recruiting them from a young age. Maybe that's true in Canada, but in the US almost all clubs have 10 and under and 11 and under youth programs and teams now. If a 10 year old low-income kid wants to play volleyball, they know where to go.
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Post by volleytology on Jul 3, 2014 14:32:48 GMT -5
I would argue that in the past quad the USA was second only to Brazil in international success. Italy, Japan, Cuba, China and even potentially Russia have fallen behind our A team and really have no excuse for that. Obviously our "system" is superior to theirs. Secondly, I disagree about the financial exclusionary nature of club volleyball. Starting's is a great program, but how many elite volleyball players has this program unearthed ? If a 6' tall athletic 11 year old athlete with an underprivileged background walks into any major club's facility in this country and says "I want to play volleyball", you better believe that club will "make it work". I don't think we're really missing out on many elite athletes who want to play volleyball. Most club directors are very aware of all the elite athletes in their areas, regardless of financial background. Cuba and Russia have fallen behind because their economic system failed. The men's Olympic champ from London is Russia. I think they have recovered. The women's team was overly dependent on the stars who were trained in the latter stages of the communist sports school system. The Chinese women that took the gold were by and large women who were trained under the sports school system. The best players in China played for various provincial teams as well as the army teams. The training was built around government funded professional teams. They started their own pro leagues after the government got out of the professional volleyball business, and the selection/training part of the sports schools function has really been left up to the local government who has the will to continue the program. They are going through a transition and are trying to create a new way of doing things, much as what we are talking about, so they have gone through some tough times. The next quad is quite telling for China. It isn't obvious that our system is superior. What is obvious is that we are at a very high level, but not clearly superior. As for your argument on the economic disparity, you said: If a 6' tall athletic 11 year old athlete with an underprivileged background walks into any major club's facility in this country and says "I want to play volleyball", you better believe that club will "make it work". First of all, it is the kids who do not walk into the doors of the local elite volleyball club that I am talking about, they don't even know what a volleyball looks like, let along an elite volleyball club. Basketball coaches are out beating the bushes for them, and they are finding kids who show promise at a very young age, before it becomes obvious that they are talented. We see kids at 10 or so. They have kids who have gotten into basketball way before that, and are committed to basketball by the time we spot them, IF we spot them. Gotten into basketball way before 10 ? and can't switch to volleyball with a good experience in one of your youth programs ? I'd say that's a "you problem". Girls switch from basketball to volleyball all the time nowadays for a variety of reasons. I guess each club and community is different in how they approach giving all kids opportunities and experiences from an early age.
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Post by silversurfer on Jul 3, 2014 15:04:04 GMT -5
I don't back changes in the club world to make us better internationally. That's not what club is about.
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Post by redbeard2008 on Jul 3, 2014 15:23:21 GMT -5
I don't back changes in the club world to make us better internationally. That's not what club is about. Which is why maybe we need to do what they do in women's gymnastics: concentrate and expand resources and funding even more for the top elite-level talent at each age-level. Winning gold will take care of expanding the talent pool and participation.
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Post by c4ndlelight on Jul 3, 2014 15:41:01 GMT -5
The problem is not the talent pool. We have more great athletes with size (and better arms) than anybody. Our athletes just don't play volleyball as well.
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Post by redbeard2008 on Jul 3, 2014 16:08:08 GMT -5
The problem is not the talent pool. We have more great athletes with size (and better arms) than anybody. Our athletes just don't play volleyball as well. Well, they're probably spending less than half the time practicing and competing as international players their same age. We're playing catch-up post-college.
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moody
Banned
Posts: 18,679
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Post by moody on Jul 3, 2014 16:15:24 GMT -5
and that's why they won the Silver Medal last Olympics? ? Stop the nonsense please. The US is developing great volleyball players and teams internationally. You people are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
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