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Post by dorothymantooth on Sept 4, 2014 8:16:51 GMT -5
Dorothy - I think Dunning, and Cook are very similar. That said I think Rose gets more out of his players. Dunning is one of the calmest, most centered people I have ever met... he is a living, breathing example of what the Italians call "Il Padrone" (often mistranslated "the Godfather"... it really means "the Patriarch"). He has an incredible command of situations and has taken the whole "adult in the room" thing to another level... seeing him and his assistants at a table doing Final Four planning, which I got to witness (out of hearing range) in the same public space/restaurant at the Fort Collins Hilton, was illustrative (they, the players and we fans were watching that incredible Washington/Nebraska match in Seattle... my ears may never have totally recovered from U-Dub's loss, because it led to the extraordinarily loud national semi-final between Nebraska and Penn State in Omaha). Cook certainly appears to get angry more often than Dunning. Dunning and Rose are total opposites... they've done speaking presentations to coaches together and the first thing Rose says in his presentation after Dunning has done his presentation is to ignore everything that Dunning has just said. The point is that if you're more like Dunning, do it Dunning's way and if you're more like Rose, do it Rose's way. No one style works for all head coaches. I actually think Dunning and Rose are a lot alike in many ways, albeit different deliveries. In a clinic setting, Russ is more entertainer than clinician. I agree that coaches should operate from their strengths. Cook, Dunning and Rose we should remember are all different people, they are going to of course operate differently. All three are super competitive, have a really high attention to detail, the difference is going to be how they relate. Obviously all three have been awfully successful, which I think demonstrates they are very similar in many ways, as winning coaches share the ability to be focused, detailed, understand winning habits, know how to prepare, can get players to buy in to the things they believe in. Again, the delivery is going to be different, how they relate is going to be different, but these guys are all doing the same things that successful coaches do.
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Post by volleyguy on Sept 4, 2014 9:28:33 GMT -5
I have to disagree with both your premise and conclusion. Even though you mention several times that they are different people with different deliveries, somehow you conclude that they are a lot alike because they share common traits as coaches. I would disagree with the premise that because they are all successful coaches, they must do similar things and therefore they are similar. I believe you have at least met each/all of them, as have I, and I'm not sure how you conclude that they are more alike than any other group of three random coaches/people in personality, intellect or any other unique human characteristic. I don't see them as similar much at all.
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Post by jgrout on Sept 4, 2014 10:17:13 GMT -5
Intellect is pretty much a given at the top level. I've briefly met Coach Haley: to my amazement, he is like an Ivy League professor off the court. I don't like him, but he is far from the mad Irish brigand one sees in practice and on the sidelines (I must admit my Irish side takes over every once in a while as well). I agree with dm's premise about the things it takes a program to reach the top, but I'd argue that it is the coaching staff that needs to have them all, not the head coach in isolation. For example, Coach Dunning is extremely detail-oriented and Assistant Coach Mansfield is the more typical athlete-turned-coach (as is Associate Coach Corlett, who is a UCLA Hall of Fame athlete). On a different staff, the detail-oriented person might be one of the assistants. Coach Shaw loved watching video... Coach Dunning delegates it. Etc.
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Post by volleytology on Sept 4, 2014 10:25:55 GMT -5
It's amazing to me that anyone would think any of the these coaches are anything other than calm and composed on the sidelines (Haley--a "wild Irish brigand" ?, he barely moves or changes expression). Is there even an animated sideline coach left in college volleyball ? or really, has there ever been ? if you relate it to the kind of circus sideline theatrics you see from men's and women's basketball coaches ? Most, if not all, volleyball coaches are extremely tame on the sideline
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Post by jgrout on Sept 4, 2014 10:31:16 GMT -5
Coach Haley rips into his setters pretty hard on the sidelines... I have seen it multiple times over the years, and I have heard far worse about how he treats them in practice... including his time with USA Volleyball. He was one and has extremely high expectations of (and for) them. Anyone who could start for him for four years in that position would go straight to their national team.
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Post by dorothymantooth on Sept 4, 2014 10:33:13 GMT -5
I have to disagree with both your premise and conclusion. Even though you mention several times that they are different people with different deliveries, somehow you conclude that they are a lot alike because they share common traits as coaches. I would disagree with the premise that because they are all successful coaches, they must do similar things and therefore they are similar. I believe you have at least met each/all of them, as have I, and I'm not sure how you conclude that they are more alike than any other group of three random coaches/people in personality, intellect or any other unique human characteristic. I don't see them as similar much at all. Maybe you misunderstood, or I probably didn't explain well enough because I don't recall saying anything even close to the idea that Rose/Dunning are more alike than alike than "any other group of three random coaches/people in personality, intellect or any other unique human characteristic". I also firmly believe that those are traits of not just winning coaches, but successful people in general. You may disagree, and do respect that. I never said that successful coaches "must do similar things" I said IMO winning coaches share the traits of being competitive, focused, detailed, and understand winning habits players have to have. Do you not feel those coaches share those traits? Also I didn't "conclude that somehow" I know them pretty well, have seen them work with their teams and spent a lot of time talking to them. Those are traits I know that they have. I'm guessing not too many folks would disagree both Rose and Dunning as well as Cook have those qualities. Where I find Rose and Dunning in particular be similar is in demeanor, especially in matches. I also think that both have a great ability to not overcomplicate the game or skills. Hopefully I did a better job of articulating where I find them to be similar. You may disagree, but that is what I believe based on my experience with them.
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Post by dorothymantooth on Sept 4, 2014 10:43:15 GMT -5
Intellect is pretty much a given at the top level. I've briefly met Coach Haley: to my amazement, he is like an Ivy League professor off the court. I don't like him, but he is far from the mad Irish brigand one sees in practice and on the sidelines (I must admit my Irish side takes over every once in a while as well). I agree with dm's premise about the things it takes a program to reach the top, but I'd argue that it is the coaching staff that needs to have them all, not the head coach in isolation. For example, Coach Dunning is extremely detail-oriented and Assistant Coach Mansfield is the more typical athlete-turned-coach (as is Associate Coach Corlett, who is a UCLA Hall of Fame athlete). On a different staff, the detail-oriented person might be one of the assistants. Coach Shaw loved watching video... Coach Dunning delegates it. Etc. Haley is an incredibly bright guy. I think his reputation for being really smart is as strong as his reputation to be the mad Irish brigand. Do you not like "him" or do you not like him as a coach? People tend to lump the two together on here. I find Mick to be a super generous person with his time, experience, willingness to help young coaches. He is also a terrific dad and a lot of fun. Obviously coach and person intersect and awful lot, but there is also a lot that is very separate.
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Post by jgrout on Sept 4, 2014 10:48:47 GMT -5
If I ever meet Coach Haley again, I want to thank him for the article he wrote about being on the bench at Ball State under Dr. Shondell. It is the best argument I have ever read against transferring out of frustration with lack of playing time and Coach Dunning had some positive follow-on comments when I mentioned the article to him at a Chalk Talk.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 11:00:29 GMT -5
When did you have this extensive contact with both the Stanford and Nebraska teams? Did I say that I did?
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Post by volleyguy on Sept 4, 2014 11:17:08 GMT -5
I have to disagree with both your premise and conclusion. Even though you mention several times that they are different people with different deliveries, somehow you conclude that they are a lot alike because they share common traits as coaches. I would disagree with the premise that because they are all successful coaches, they must do similar things and therefore they are similar. I believe you have at least met each/all of them, as have I, and I'm not sure how you conclude that they are more alike than any other group of three random coaches/people in personality, intellect or any other unique human characteristic. I don't see them as similar much at all. Maybe you misunderstood, or I probably didn't explain well enough because I don't recall saying anything even close to the idea that Rose/Dunning are more alike than alike than "any other group of three random coaches/people in personality, intellect or any other unique human characteristic". I also firmly believe that those are traits of not just winning coaches, but successful people in general. You may disagree, and do respect that. I never said that successful coaches "must do similar things" I said IMO winning coaches share the traits of being competitive, focused, detailed, and understand winning habits players have to have. Do you not feel those coaches share those traits? Also I didn't "conclude that somehow" I know them pretty well, have seen them work with their teams and spent a lot of time talking to them. Those are traits I know that they have. I'm guessing not too many folks would disagree both Rose and Dunning as well as Cook have those qualities. Where I find Rose and Dunning in particular be similar is in demeanor, especially in matches. I also think that both have a great ability to not overcomplicate the game or skills. Hopefully I did a better job of articulating where I find them to be similar. You may disagree, but that is what I believe based on my experience with them. Fair enough. I didn't say that you said anything about random people--I was saying that just because Rose and Dunning are both coaches doesn't mean that they are any more alike than if you compared two random people. I think any "misunderstanding" of your post has to do with the structure of the argument of the post. You started out by stating that Rose and Dunning were "a lot alike in many ways, albeit different deliveries." Then, after acknowledging that they were different people, you discussed their similarities in detail. In the end, the entirety of your posts gives the impression that you are subordinating the differences in delivery to the similarities of being a successful coach. The same type of subordination existed in the Nebraska-Stanford thread posts, where most of the reaction was to the impression that you were concluding that Stanford had more "talent" because they won the match so easily (I know you mentioned other factors). In the case of Neb-Stanford, I was saying that someone with volleyball experience could observe the level of talent and conclude that Stanford was more talented, regardless of the outcome of the match. Similarly, I am saying that after spending any amount of time with Dunning and Rose, it doesn't seem difficult to me to conclude that they are in fact very different people with regards to the characteristics that we commonly use to define what makes each person different. That is my conclusion based on my experiences with them, which I why i said i disagreed with your premise and conclusion.
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Post by dorothymantooth on Sept 4, 2014 11:38:00 GMT -5
Maybe you misunderstood, or I probably didn't explain well enough because I don't recall saying anything even close to the idea that Rose/Dunning are more alike than alike than "any other group of three random coaches/people in personality, intellect or any other unique human characteristic". I also firmly believe that those are traits of not just winning coaches, but successful people in general. You may disagree, and do respect that. I never said that successful coaches "must do similar things" I said IMO winning coaches share the traits of being competitive, focused, detailed, and understand winning habits players have to have. Do you not feel those coaches share those traits? Also I didn't "conclude that somehow" I know them pretty well, have seen them work with their teams and spent a lot of time talking to them. Those are traits I know that they have. I'm guessing not too many folks would disagree both Rose and Dunning as well as Cook have those qualities. Where I find Rose and Dunning in particular be similar is in demeanor, especially in matches. I also think that both have a great ability to not overcomplicate the game or skills. Hopefully I did a better job of articulating where I find them to be similar. You may disagree, but that is what I believe based on my experience with them. Fair enough. I didn't say that you said anything about random people--I was saying that just because Rose and Dunning are both coaches doesn't mean that they are any more alike than if you compared two random people. I think any "misunderstanding" of your post has to do with the structure of the argument of the post. You started out by stating that Rose and Dunning were "a lot alike in many ways, albeit different deliveries." Then, after acknowledging that they were different people, you discussed their similarities in detail. In the end, the entirety of your posts gives the impression that you are subordinating the differences in delivery to the similarities of being a successful coach. The same type of subordination existed in the Nebraska-Stanford thread posts, where most of the reaction was to the impression that you were concluding that Stanford had more "talent" because they won the match so easily (I know you mentioned other factors). In the case of Neb-Stanford, I was saying that someone with volleyball experience could observe the level of talent and conclude that Stanford was more talented, regardless of the outcome of the match. Similarly, I am saying that after spending any amount of time with Dunning and Rose, it doesn't seem difficult to me to conclude that they are in fact very different people with regards to the characteristics that we commonly use to define what makes each person different. That is my conclusion based on my experiences with them, which I why i said i disagreed with your premise and conclusion. I agree. Certainly JD and Russ have some pretty dramatic personality differences. John I certainly felt that there was a difference in talent level. Somehow the idea of Stanford having better talent, became me saying Nebraska doesn't have talent. Obviously they do. I think the match Friday will be great, and think its a little more important for Stanford, in the fact that most would say Stanford "should" be better than PSU "at this point".
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Post by wonderwarthog79 on Sept 5, 2014 12:32:40 GMT -5
Dorothy - I think Dunning, and Cook are very similar. That said I think Rose gets more out of his players. I don't see the similarities, but I don't pretend to understand their coaching behavior or philosophy. Why do you think Rose "gets more"? His success the last several years? Do the teams that have the best records always have the best coach? BTW, someone else said that Rose and Dunning gave bookend talks on coaching, and after Dunning spoke, Rose told everyone to ignore everything Dunning had said. Unless this was a joke, and I haven't heard Rose ever joke, what was it Jim said to which Rose objected? Inquiring minds want to know!
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Post by dorothymantooth on Sept 5, 2014 12:35:52 GMT -5
Dorothy - I think Dunning, and Cook are very similar. That said I think Rose gets more out of his players. I don't see the similarities, but I don't pretend to understand their coaching behavior or philosophy. Why do you think Rose "gets more"? His success the last several years? Do the teams that have the best records always have the best coach? BTW, someone else said that Rose and Dunning gave bookend talks on coaching, and after Dunning spoke, Rose told everyone to ignore everything Dunning had said. Unless this was a joke, and I haven't heard Rose ever joke, what was it Jim said to which Rose objected? Inquiring minds want to know! In 20 years I haven't heard Russ not joke!
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Post by jsn112 on Sept 5, 2014 13:03:06 GMT -5
Dorothy - I think Dunning, and Cook are very similar. That said I think Rose gets more out of his players. I don't see the similarities, but I don't pretend to understand their coaching behavior or philosophy. Why do you think Rose "gets more"? His success the last several years? Do the teams that have the best records always have the best coach? BTW, someone else said that Rose and Dunning gave bookend talks on coaching, and after Dunning spoke, Rose told everyone to ignore everything Dunning had said. Unless this was a joke, and I haven't heard Rose ever joke, what was it Jim said to which Rose objected? Inquiring minds want to know! This is what I posted a couple of weeks ago. Watch and see how humorous RR can really be. Very informative and entertaining at the same time: volleytalk.proboards.com/thread/54760/art-coaching-russ-rose
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