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Post by kokyu on Apr 16, 2015 13:21:09 GMT -5
Floating doesn't disappear with speed, it only gets delayed across the net which reduces a receiver's reaction time and increases difficulty.
If you watch any of the best mens teams in the world, as already referred to, you'll see a full power hybrid jump serve on average once or twice in a match. These almost always ace the libero as well, understandably.
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Post by Garand on Apr 16, 2015 13:52:29 GMT -5
I disagree completely. Float behavior disappears rapidly with speed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2015 20:00:51 GMT -5
i have heard there is a sweet spot of around 36-38 mph for max float.
wish i had a radar gun to measure and verify...
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Post by Garand on Apr 16, 2015 20:29:42 GMT -5
i have heard there is a sweet spot of around 36-38 mph for max float. wish i had a radar gun to measure and verify... That's the speed range I've always heard.
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Post by kokyu on Apr 16, 2015 23:07:39 GMT -5
I disagree completely. Float behavior disappears rapidly with speed. Of course it does on a traditional float not spinning around, half or quarter turn of the ball shouldn't be considered spin here either. The best traditional floats are double floats which break trajectory twice before hitting reception in whatever middling speed range already mentioned. Most people have great difficulty tracking the first break, the second break also happens right before contact with reception like a hybrid's first and only break, is a nightmare. The old school tachikaras and pro touches are the balls most conducive to double floats. When you find good double float servers, usually short women with small hands as they're able to hit the float bullseye (central axis) much more consistently and with attitude, you learn quickly how to adjust assuming you're capable of receiving for a good or decent pass. Sometimes just not getting aced is above the 95th percentile in skill level.
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alexsi
Sophomore
I don't always play volleyball but when I .... oh, wait... I always play volleyball!
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Post by alexsi on Apr 25, 2015 22:20:17 GMT -5
The key thing that is being missed in this conversation is aerodynamics and the gyroscope effect. The spin on top spin serve (whether served with a standard top spin serve or with a hybrid approach)does two things to the serve: 1.) It creates a higher pressure air pocket on top of the ball (basically the opposite of an airplane wing) through an effect called "The Magnus Effect". This pushes the ball down and causes it to dive more quickly into the court. I've read studies that the effect of this downward force can actually have a much great effect on the ball than even gravity does! You can read about this here: www.real-world-physics-problems.com/physics-of-volleyball.html (scroll down toward the bottom). 2.) The second is that the spin also causes a gyroscopic effect on the ball - similar to a gyroscope, a yo-yo or a top, the spin stabilizes the ball and makes it more likely to move in a smooth, predictable pattern. Those of you who have received a hard hit top spin serve will recall that these serves have a very straight/true path and tend to move very little in the horizontal plane. Because of this, you can hit a top spin serve much harder and still have the ball land inside the court. This is because it tends to dive or curve down into the opposing court. However it goes straight toward it's target and doesn't have a lot of side-to-side or unpredictable up and down movement. So if you are serving a top spin serve, you need to hit the ball hard enough that it is just going to fast for your opponent to return effectively. A float serve on the other hand (ideally with no spin) is much more likely to be effected by the variations in air pressure and air movement that naturally occur. So when a float serve hits an airpocket or crossed into some faster moving air (maybe being blown on the court by an AC/ventilation system) it tends to move unpredictably. However you can't hit a float serve as hard and have it land in to court because it does not have a Magnus Effect acting on it, and thus the only force pulling it down is gravity. Thus the 35-38 mph rule of thumb. Of course if you are taller or can jump higher on your serve, you can serve with more of a downward angle, which means you can hit it harder. So if you are contacting the ball high, you might even be able to serve in the 40-42 mph range and still keep a float serve in the court. Regarding a "Hybrid Serve" - This is generally a top spin jump serve where: 1.) The server's approach footwork is similar to a jump float serve 2.) Where they toss the ball with two hands rather than one 3.) Where they toss between taking their second and third step rather than on their first step 4.) Where the toss is lower and the server contacts it just at or below the peak of the toss rather than on the downward arc. However the hitting motion is generally the same and the goal is to impart as much force and top spin on the ball as possible. Many players find this serve easier to execute since the toss does not have to go nearly as high or travel as far and is thus both easier to execute and easier to hit than the traditionally very high toss of a top spin jump serve.
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Post by kokyu on Apr 26, 2015 14:33:45 GMT -5
Can't believe you give any credit to the ventilation system, wind's only a factor on the beach.
The number of hybrid specialists following the hybrid format described above in the collegiate, professional level are very few, almost negligible. Bricio of course, we did see Nwanebu able to learn it a little too at the end of last season, Stahl on the men's side who only tries it on about 25% of his serves.
The majority of hybrids being done in the men's game, and significantly less so in the women's since they don't have as much power, are by the best traditional jump servers who hit the float bullseye on average once or twice a match. These full speed serves do break side to side right before reception which is why they almost always end up being an ace. If any of you actually received from highly skilled jump servers you'd already know this. The ideal hybrid is 'hidden in plain sight.' You're not going to see it as a spectator with just a side court view.
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Post by Garand on Apr 27, 2015 1:51:45 GMT -5
Thank you, Alexsi, for the background material. I pretty much accepted all of that in my first post and wanted to move on to the serve in question. But as long as we're here, I do happen to disagree with you on one point with respect to the float serve: You can't rely on indoor air currents for movement of a float serve, one reason being that the indoor currents aren't generally very random. That's why you want a tiny bit of rotation on the volleyball to sort of "create" some randomness by disturbing the air flow around the ball. *
Apart from that, your description on how to serve a floater seemed to fall into the deception camp more than an actual physical difference in the ball's flight. Or did I misunderstand?
* Hey Garrison or Phaedrus: for a floater, we're definitely in the low laminar region here, right? What would the equivalent of the Reynolds number parameter be for air flowing past a sphere the size of a of volleyball?
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