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Post by karlpopper on Aug 31, 2015 21:15:38 GMT -5
While I think trying to decipher the "greatest" is a wasted effort, it is very interesting to listen to the commentary on the strengths and weaknesses of the great players. I have watched these youtube replays and the testosterone levels were off the charts. Everyone seemed the be chirping at everyone, maybe with the exception of Karch. Still even Karch might have been saying things under his breath to his partner. It's impossible to tell on youtube, but for some of you who may have had a front row seat and could hear every word, it would be very interesting to hear your comments. Were the players on the same team really getting on each other all the time or was it more complaining about calls, or just being an ass
In the indoor game this is usually very destructive behavior if a coach lets it happen. Temperamental hitters bitching at the location of every set can ruin a setter's confidence pretty quickly. It is easy to bitch at the setter when as a hitter you never have to set a ball. Is this not a problem in the beach game? Is it because in the beach game everyone has to pass, set, block, and play some defense? So is the yelling is more about hustle or not being in the right place? Is it motivating for only the toughest minded player, where the softer players are destroyed?
I was at one women's match a few years ago where the top all-time team were throwing f u's back and forth at each other during a timeout, so I know everything is not always rosy. But is it better to be brutal on your partner and then dump em if they can't handle it, or encouraging and develop trust and cohesiveness?
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Post by tinman2 on Aug 31, 2015 21:23:39 GMT -5
I watched Sinjin and Randy play a lot and they were quite "chirpy" as you put it. Randy was high strung and type A, all the way. Very demanding of his partners. After he dumped Sinjin for Brian Lewis, Lewey said, "Sinjin must have been deaf, playing with Randy so long."
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Post by guest2 on Sept 1, 2015 14:00:41 GMT -5
While I think trying to decipher the "greatest" is a wasted effort, it is very interesting to listen to the commentary on the strengths and weaknesses of the great players. I have watched these youtube replays and the testosterone levels were off the charts. Everyone seemed the be chirping at everyone, maybe with the exception of Karch. Still even Karch might have been saying things under his breath to his partner. It's impossible to tell on youtube, but for some of you who may have had a front row seat and could hear every word, it would be very interesting to hear your comments. Were the players on the same team really getting on each other all the time or was it more complaining about calls, or just being an ass In the indoor game this is usually very destructive behavior if a coach lets it happen. Temperamental hitters bitching at the location of every set can ruin a setter's confidence pretty quickly. It is easy to bitch at the setter when as a hitter you never have to set a ball. Is this not a problem in the beach game? Is it because in the beach game everyone has to pass, set, block, and play some defense? So is the yelling is more about hustle or not being in the right place? Is it motivating for only the toughest minded player, where the softer players are destroyed? I was at one women's match a few years ago where the top all-time team were throwing f u's back and forth at each other during a timeout, so I know everything is not always rosy. But is it better to be brutal on your partner and then dump em if they can't handle it, or encouraging and develop trust and cohesiveness? The idea that the chirping, at least in the mens game, is destructive, is a PC myth. Also I am not sure how you can watch some of those old games and miss Karch yelling at this partners. (Frohoff, young Kent, and Doble all took quite a bit from Karch) Of the golden era guys: Randy, Karch, Powers, and Hov were all downright nasty to partners. Also, along with Sinjin and Dodd, hands down the best players of that era. Sinjin was no saint himself. One of the biggest differences between a player like Stoklos and a player like Ricci Luyties (who had near identical talents) was that Randy was a nasty SOB on the court and Ricci was a nice guy. Its not a coincidence that Randy has 10 wins for every one that Ricci got. Indoors the mens national team in 84 and 88 were also known for getting on each other, including Karch. Does this survival of the fittest approach occasionally weed out a mentally soft but valuable player? Yes, but it makes the others much much stronger. Also complaining about calls absolutely works. There have been several studies in the NBA, tennis etc. and all found that refs end up giving more calls to the players that treat them like garbage. We want to believe that sportsmanship has a correlation to winning but it simply does not and often its the opposite. In fact Phil's lack of that competitiveness and focus is his biggest weakness.
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Post by guest2 on Sept 1, 2015 14:03:05 GMT -5
I watched Sinjin and Randy play a lot and they were quite "chirpy" as you put it. Randy was high strung and type A, all the way. Very demanding of his partners. After he dumped Sinjin for Brian Lewis, Lewey said, "Sinjin must have been deaf, playing with Randy so long." Randy had a lot of trouble getting and keeping good partners late in his career because of this. One reason I will never think of Ak as a great player is that when choosing between Randy and Brian Lewis as a partner, he picked Lewy largely because Brian was nicer, when Randy was clearly the better choice as a partner. Sad commentary about the professionalism of beach volleyball players.
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Post by ciscokeed on Sept 1, 2015 15:44:01 GMT -5
I don't think that bickering teammates and high maintenance players is unusual at any professional sport. You have to be ultra competitive walk a fine line between arrogance and confidence and you rarely back down- all part of being that good. Even nice guys have just learned to manage their emotions better- they still burn inside if they are getting podium finishes
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Post by karlpopper on Sept 1, 2015 21:21:30 GMT -5
While I think trying to decipher the "greatest" is a wasted effort, it is very interesting to listen to the commentary on the strengths and weaknesses of the great players. I have watched these youtube replays and the testosterone levels were off the charts. Everyone seemed the be chirping at everyone, maybe with the exception of Karch. Still even Karch might have been saying things under his breath to his partner. It's impossible to tell on youtube, but for some of you who may have had a front row seat and could hear every word, it would be very interesting to hear your comments. Were the players on the same team really getting on each other all the time or was it more complaining about calls, or just being an ass In the indoor game this is usually very destructive behavior if a coach lets it happen. Temperamental hitters bitching at the location of every set can ruin a setter's confidence pretty quickly. It is easy to bitch at the setter when as a hitter you never have to set a ball. Is this not a problem in the beach game? Is it because in the beach game everyone has to pass, set, block, and play some defense? So is the yelling is more about hustle or not being in the right place? Is it motivating for only the toughest minded player, where the softer players are destroyed? I was at one women's match a few years ago where the top all-time team were throwing f u's back and forth at each other during a timeout, so I know everything is not always rosy. But is it better to be brutal on your partner and then dump em if they can't handle it, or encouraging and develop trust and cohesiveness? The idea that the chirping, at least in the mens game, is destructive, is a PC myth. Also I am not sure how you can watch some of those old games and miss Karch yelling at this partners. (Frohoff, young Kent, and Doble all took quite a bit from Karch) Of the golden era guys: Randy, Karch, Powers, and Hov were all downright nasty to partners. Also, along with Sinjin and Dodd, hands down the best players of that era. Sinjin was no saint himself. One of the biggest differences between a player like Stoklos and a player like Ricci Luyties (who had near identical talents) was that Randy was a nasty SOB on the court and Ricci was a nice guy. Its not a coincidence that Randy has 10 wins for every one that Ricci got. Indoors the mens national team in 84 and 88 were also known for getting on each other, including Karch. Does this survival of the fittest approach occasionally weed out a mentally soft but valuable player? Yes, but it makes the others much much stronger. Also complaining about calls absolutely works. There have been several studies in the NBA, tennis etc. and all found that refs end up giving more calls to the players that treat them like garbage. We want to believe that sportsmanship has a correlation to winning but it simply does not and often its the opposite. In fact Phil's lack of that competitiveness and focus is his biggest weakness.
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Post by karlpopper on Sept 1, 2015 21:49:38 GMT -5
There is quite a lot of evidence that many top athletes in all sports are very hard on their teammates. Michael Jordan is infamous for "Jordan rules." Tom Brady is regularly in the face of his teammates. And I agree that that there is no correlation between sportsmanship and winning. Or for that matter, being a good person and winning. Many if not most of the top athletes in any sport are hyper-competitive and will run over anyone who gets in their way.
Yet I have a concern that many young players and/or coaches interpret this as evidence that being hard on teammates or chirping makes the team better when I don't think the evidence suggests this at all. The ability to play with a Stoklos and not let his hubris and biting comments bother you, shows a tough mindedness that most top athletes require. But does the chirping actually help the team play better as some suggest? I say no, but biting comments just don't hurt when you are sufficiently tough minded.
You said Karch was very tough on his partners. Which he probably was. But without first hand knowledge (only the conjecture of others) it is interesting that as a coach it appears that he thinks the best player in the women's game (Logan Tom) or the highly talented but arrogant Destiny Hooker, with all of their superior abilities would not be a net positive for the National Team.
Of course I could be wrong about all of this, so I welcome anyone's counter argument.
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Post by guest2 on Sept 2, 2015 4:43:49 GMT -5
There is quite a lot of evidence that many top athletes in all sports are very hard on their teammates. Michael Jordan is infamous for "Jordan rules." Tom Brady is regularly in the face of his teammates. And I agree that that there is no correlation between sportsmanship and winning. Or for that matter, being a good person and winning. Many if not most of the top athletes in any sport are hyper-competitive and will run over anyone who gets in their way. Yet I have a concern that many young players and/or coaches interpret this as evidence that being hard on teammates or chirping makes the team better when I don't think the evidence suggests this at all. The ability to play with a Stoklos and not let his hubris and biting comments bother you, shows a tough mindedness that most top athletes require. But does the chirping actually help the team play better as some suggest? I say no, but biting comments just don't hurt when you are sufficiently tough minded. You said Karch was very tough on his partners. Which he probably was. But without first hand knowledge (only the conjecture of others) it is interesting that as a coach it appears that he thinks the best player in the women's game (Logan Tom) or the highly talented but arrogant Destiny Hooker, with all of their superior abilities would not be a net positive for the National Team. Of course I could be wrong about all of this, so I welcome anyone's counter argument. I think a big difference between Karch coaching and playing is the difference between male and female athletes. Men and women react somewhat differently to that kind of motivation and more importantly, how they react is perceived very differently. I dont follow women's indoor closely enough to say, but the US team has a history of kicking off athletes it considered problematic, sometimes to its own detriment (Keba, Sinjin, Hov) With regards to male athletes, look at the NFL. Who are the most successful coaches and leaders? Belichick, Brady, Manning, Harbaugh, guys like that. Guys who will not hesitate to scream at a teammate or player if they believe it necessary. In the NBA, since 1992, most of the titles have been won by teams led by players who were SOBs (Kobe, MJ, Popovich) Phil Jackson was not averse to calling out his own players. (Meowing at Kwame Brown for example) Those sports are much truer testing grounds than BVB because of the amount of money at stake. Coaches and players are going to win at all costs.
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Post by ciscokeed on Sept 2, 2015 8:16:08 GMT -5
These comments that Karch was a difficult teammate are way off the mark. He was always on time out worked everyone in the gym tried to win every drill and got along with his teammates just fine. Now he was ultra competitive and there was some jawing going on during practices but Karch never undermined a team-always respected and worked with his coaches... That whole group thrived on competition and they had high standards and they got on each other in heated moments during practice- and sometimes matches... That is a big difference then some of the crap Hooker was dealing!
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Post by haze on Sept 2, 2015 10:19:25 GMT -5
I'm not sure if some of you guys are spouting off observational perceptions on the older players being hard on their teammates, or if you actually have inside knowledge, but it seems to be a very mindset than the players in today's game. Anyone know if the guys that were real hard on their partner like Randy, Hov, etc, could also handle it when their partner was giving it back to them? I don't see any problems with being very hard on your partner and demanding, but at the same time if you are going to dish that out you better be able to take it in when it's warranted too.
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