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Post by sIsam on Dec 30, 2003 15:42:29 GMT -5
Players from overseas "pro" teams have been playing college ball for quite a while and on many teams in the US.
You gotta understand that in Europe there is no collegegiate sports scene. If you want to play at a higher level, you play club sports (starting from the age of about 10). You can not really consider these players as pros....
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Post by StuffU on Dec 31, 2003 12:44:45 GMT -5
I understand this. But, if I'm not mistaken, Costas of the men's team competed on a team that had paid professionals. He was not paid. Am I mistaken?
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Post by brybry on Dec 31, 2003 14:03:05 GMT -5
The NCAA already investigated Cruz, it's why she missed like the 1st 8 matches her freshman year. They did the same with Cepero, I believe, but not sure she missed any match time. They found no violations for either, but since they enrolled, I believe they've changed the rules so that if they were to enroll in school now, neither would be eligible to play in college. It'd be a shame if we didn't get to see these women play. They brought a high level of volleyball w/ them.
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Post by Charlie on Dec 31, 2003 23:04:54 GMT -5
I believe they've changed the rules so that if they were to enroll in school now, neither would be eligible to play in college. I think that is right - the rules changed recently. It used to be you could play, but not earn money, and now you can't play at all with professionals. Hey, I played basketball on a club team in Istanbul when I was 16 and living there. Does that make me a pro? Wooo hooo. I always wanted to be a professional athlete. I know, I know, in my dreams . . .
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Post by Wolfgang on Jan 1, 2004 0:40:10 GMT -5
Hey, I played basketball on a club team in Istanbul when I was 16 and living there. Does that make me a pro? Wooo hooo. I always wanted to be a professional athlete. I know, I know, in my dreams . . . Gosh, I feel like I hardly knew ye. You are now, all of a sudden, so much more interesting with Turkey in your rap sheet. Silly me, I just took you for a cranky old guy.
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Post by sIsam on Jan 1, 2004 6:19:01 GMT -5
Collegiate teams still recruit extensively here in Turkey which means there is some way around it. My guess would be that it'd be OK to play in jr teams of pro teams.
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Post by foreignball on Jan 2, 2004 14:07:46 GMT -5
Collegiate teams still recruit extensively here in Turkey which means there is some way around it. My guess would be that it'd be OK to play in jr teams of pro teams. I think some small bits of information are missing here and will make an attempt to clarify them: 1. In difference to the US there aren’t HS sports in this part of the world (Eastern Europe) in terms of development and competition (sisam6, correct me if you think I’m wrong). 2. Collegiate sports are also almost non-existing – they are recreational and even though there is some competition it’s about at the level of the coed leagues here. Athletic scholarships are not available! The only chance for anyone, who wants to become a decent athlete and compete in any given sport is to play club. Most clubs don’t specialize only in one sport and quite often they have teams in over a dozen different ones. Basically all clubs are businesses because they make money out of their men’s/women’s teams. However they develop and support JO teams because that’s their fresh “blood stream”. Age groups are similar to here – 12, 14, 16 and 19 (pay attention to this one!) and all teams compete just like here – by age groups. JO players don’t get paid and they do not practice (compete) together (against) pros even though they have 2 major benefits and one catch (I’ll bring this up later): they don’t pay club fees and get their travel expenses covered! I believe thousands of US parents whose kids play club sports would like those two. I don’t see any violation of NCAA rules so far, correct? One could ask “why clubs do that”? They do it because that’s how they fill up their men/women teams. They can’t expect somebody like LeBron or Kobe to come directly from a HS team or to draft a bunch of NCAA players every year (see 1 and 2). Let’s get back to the age groups and especially to the last one: in many European countries children may get in 1st grade either at age of 6 or at age of 7. So it’s normally to have both 18 and 19 old HS graduates by the time of their graduation and that’s why 19 still has JO (amateur) status. Another point: what if a player has been moved up to an older age group? After his/her first competitive game he/she must stay there i.e. such a player can’t compete in his/her actual age group any more! Prospective players are encouraged to move up where they practice/play at the higher level but a few months later they are quite ahead compared to the rest so any team that could move 1-2 players would have serious advantage in any JO tournament. If we count the opportunities that a player who is about to finish his/her JO career has we will come up with: to sign a professional contract, quit playing at all and the last but not the least is to apply for an athletic scholarship in the US. The elite pro teams that offer good money are not that many even in Europe and provided there hundred or may be thousands of players who are trying to sign with them makes this chance almost unreal especially for 18-19 old youngsters. On top of everything else here comes the catch that I mentioned above: any player must sign the first contract with the club where he/she has played JO ball and in some countries it has to be at least for 3 years. So basically the club “owns” the first 3 years of player’s pro career and any transfers have to be approved by the club’s management. Any club that owns a young and rising star wouldn’t let her go quietly and lose all future dividends. They will report her status to NCAA just to keep her away of playing in the US. From another hand they can do nothing if that player hasn’t signed a contract yet – she’s going somewhere to continue her education and she isn’t going to play professionally. Basically clubs have rights only when it comes to professional players. That’s why NCAA eligibility violations could come only from those players who were moved to practice/play with pro teams while still in JO age and before they signed contracts. I believe this could be proven easily: vball federations keep records about their JO finals. Any player who played there the very last year of his/her JO eligibility should be “clean”: JO coaches over there are pretty good in keeping an eye on all “stars” and which teams they play for because any team that moves a player back to his/her actual age group is facing disqualification. I believe if any potential recruit is required to provide a copy of that record everything will be clear right away. All of the above is based on the fact we are discussing high-level players. My knowledge is limited only to several Eastern European countries.
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Post by sIsam on Jan 2, 2004 15:47:15 GMT -5
That's pretty much the case here as well. You basically belong to the club you sign until you are 21.
As far as I know, we do not have the rule about not being able to play in the younger category once they player for a higher age group. They can play both (or more age groups). We have players who play on under 16 and under 19 national teams as far as I know...
Rules have changed since the beginning of the 90s though since I know a couple of players who played in A teams here and NCAA ball in the US and they would not be eligible now.
Most of the players who are good enough to play on the pro team of a club at such an age would not be wanting to go anywhere anyways.
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Post by foreignball on Jan 2, 2004 16:42:37 GMT -5
As far as I know, we do not have the rule about not being able to play in the younger category once they player for a higher age group. They can play both (or more age groups). We have players who play on under 16 and under 19 national teams as far as I know... It’s possible you don’t have that “move up, not down” rule but as far as I know know it works in at least 3 different countries. It was implemented a few years ago as a result of permanent complaints against some bigger clubs, which were able to switch players up and down on a regular basis. During the regular season those players were playing or at least practicing with their women teams and were showing up only for JO finals to collect the medals. So anybody else was pretty much robbed.
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Post by Murina on Jan 3, 2004 3:20:23 GMT -5
Foreignball,
Do you know if Italy or Russia have this move up/down rule?
In Karpol's book he states that his top players routinely start practicing with the adults as early as 14 years old and are named on adult teams as early as 16 years old. Of course, they may never get into a match I guess... I don't think Uralochka teams win many age group championships so maybe those players do stay up...?
I may be mistaken, but thought Fiorin won u19 MVP in Italy? She spent the entire season playing for the Serie A1 (Vicenza) team, and I thought she joined the u19 team for their playoffs (which they won). This is exactly the type of thing that led to the rule we're talking about!
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Post by sIsam on Jan 3, 2004 4:15:53 GMT -5
The way it works here is that if a players is good enough to be a regular starter on the pro team, they will pull her from the junior teams of the pro team since she would not have enough time. She still continues to play for the age group(s) in national teams though.
If the young player is on the bench for the pro team, they also keep her in the roster for the younger age group teams so that she can get playing time.
I'd think the rules in Russia depend on Karpol's whims. He'd do it the way he wants it. Just like he keeps moving players from one team to another, he'd move any player where it suits him...
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Post by Murina on Jan 4, 2004 2:55:32 GMT -5
The way it works here is that if a players is good enough to be a regular starter on the pro team, they will pull her from the junior teams of the pro team since she would not have enough time. She still continues to play for the age group(s) in national teams though. If the young player is on the bench for the pro team, they also keep her in the roster for the younger age group teams so that she can get playing time. I'd think the rules in Russia depend on Karpol's whims. He'd do it the way he wants it. Just like he keeps moving players from one team to another, he'd move any player where it suits him... Makes sense. No doubt about Karpol! I was shocked when I learned about he's got things structured. The power struggle when he leaves should be pretty entertaining!
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Post by sIsam on Jan 4, 2004 6:22:57 GMT -5
Makes sense. No doubt about Karpol! I was shocked when I learned about he's got things structured. The power struggle when he leaves should be pretty entertaining! Definitely! I expect Ogienko to take over and not sure if she'd be any better than he is. I hear she's a lot more stricter than he is. Also you notice that he still lists chachkova on the russian roster though she's not playing for them?
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Post by foreignball on Jan 4, 2004 18:09:19 GMT -5
Foreignball, Do you know if Italy or Russia have this move up/down rule? In Karpol's book he states that his top players routinely start practicing with the adults as early as 14 years old and are named on adult teams as early as 16 years old. Of course, they may never get into a match I guess... I don't think Uralochka teams win many age group championships so maybe those players do stay up...? I may be mistaken, but thought Fiorin won u19 MVP in Italy? She spent the entire season playing for the Serie A1 (Vicenza) team, and I thought she joined the u19 team for their playoffs (which they won). This is exactly the type of thing that led to the rule we're talking about! Unfortunately my personal info about Italy is about 5-6 years old and a lot of things could have changed since then. They didn’t have it at the time when I was up to date. BTW I’m recalling they had another interesting rule: all competitive games for age groups under 14 had to be served “underhand”. I was told that by taking out fast and easily scored points they were increasing ball control and all around game skills. I don’t know whether Russians has it or not. They have completely different system (Eastern Germany use to have the same): There are special HS AKA High Performance Sports schools. Basically they draw most prospective young athletes (not only in vball) and almost any big club “owns” such a school by financing it. All students have individual tutors/classes, their room/board is fully covered and they have to focus only on the sports they participate in. Something like Div 1 athletes here with the difference there isn’t any limits like 20 h/week practice or how many weeks a season lasts, etc. and they are HS's not colleges. Classes schedule totally depends on athletic activities and is somehow “second hand” matter (the level of education there in general is much lower compared to the normal schools), so actually those schools prepare young professional athletes.
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Post by foreignball on Jan 4, 2004 18:10:36 GMT -5
She still continues to play for the age group(s) in national teams though. When it comes to JNT the rule doesn’t apply, of course.
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