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Post by sewivb on Nov 30, 2015 15:23:43 GMT -5
Let's ignore SouthportDad please. Southport 16's will be good again but will not beat MVC just like last year. They are a very good team that passes well and hits hard but don't have the size and that will be a challenge, especially this year.
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Post by wivball17 on Nov 30, 2015 17:47:36 GMT -5
The MVC 16s team is bringing back some great talent as well as adding a new 6'8 middle from marquette who hit over .600 in a state game. Should be a really fun team watch, easily the best in Wisconsin.
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Post by vball2012 on Nov 30, 2015 18:00:14 GMT -5
I think that the only team with a chance to medal this year is Sting 18's which is probably extremely unlikely to happen.
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Post by oldschlvb on Nov 30, 2015 19:47:03 GMT -5
I think that the only team with a chance to medal this year is Sting 18's which is probably extremely unlikely to happen. I think you are probably right. It's too bad, really, for all the talent that team has had over the years. Really think that four years with the same coaches has hurt that group. Almost no real improvement compared to everyone else in the Midwest. Pretty much dominated the Midwest at 14's and 15's and then just stayed the same as the SPRI, HPStL, Ultimates and even MVC caught up and passed them. Would have been nice to see how that group might have developed under different coaching year to year.
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Post by coy on Nov 30, 2015 19:59:09 GMT -5
I think that the only team with a chance to medal this year is Sting 18's which is probably extremely unlikely to happen. I think you are probably right. It's too bad, really, for all the talent that team has had over the years. Really think that four years with the same coaches has hurt that group. Almost no real improvement compared to everyone else in the Midwest. Pretty much dominated the Midwest at 14's and 15's and then just stayed the same as the SPRI, HPStL, Ultimates and even MVC caught up and passed them. Would have been nice to see how that group might have developed under different coaching year to year. Yes, their 1st, 5th, 3rd, 9th, and 5th place finishes show a clear lack of development by them and is clearly underperforming by a wide margin... Not sure who you think is out there to coach a team up in Wisconsin. We don't exactly have the benefit of numerous division one college men's volleyball programs around the area like Southern California clubs do. Oh, and by the way, not a single team you mentioned (especially MVC) finished above them in any single year, so you're just flat out wrong.
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Post by vball2012 on Nov 30, 2015 23:05:40 GMT -5
I think you are probably right. It's too bad, really, for all the talent that team has had over the years. Really think that four years with the same coaches has hurt that group. Almost no real improvement compared to everyone else in the Midwest. Pretty much dominated the Midwest at 14's and 15's and then just stayed the same as the SPRI, HPStL, Ultimates and even MVC caught up and passed them. Would have been nice to see how that group might have developed under different coaching year to year. Yes, their 1st, 5th, 3rd, 9th, and 5th place finishes show a clear lack of development by them and is clearly underperforming by a wide margin... Not sure who you think is out there to coach a team up in Wisconsin. We don't exactly have the benefit of numerous division one college men's volleyball programs around the area like Southern California clubs do. Oh, and by the way, not a single team you mentioned (especially MVC) finished above them in any single year, so you're just flat out wrong. I disagree, last year they had way more losses to teams like ultimate and hi p then wins. Also their 5th place finish last year at nationals was more of like a fluke then anything else.
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Post by freeball on Dec 1, 2015 0:44:53 GMT -5
I think you are probably right. It's too bad, really, for all the talent that team has had over the years. Really think that four years with the same coaches has hurt that group. Almost no real improvement compared to everyone else in the Midwest. Pretty much dominated the Midwest at 14's and 15's and then just stayed the same as the SPRI, HPStL, Ultimates and even MVC caught up and passed them. Would have been nice to see how that group might have developed under different coaching year to year. Yes, their 1st, 5th, 3rd, 9th, and 5th place finishes show a clear lack of development by them and is clearly underperforming by a wide margin... Not sure who you think is out there to coach a team up in Wisconsin. We don't exactly have the benefit of numerous division one college men's volleyball programs around the area like Southern California clubs do. Oh, and by the way, not a single team you mentioned (especially MVC) finished above them in any single year, so you're just flat out wrong. That team's finishes at Nationals is certainly a reflection of the great talent of the team's players. I think what some have tried to say, especially in light of last year, is that the team has not been as dominate recently as they were in their earlier years. Using last year as an example, in Chicago they finished 9th, losing in the opening round of the gold playoffs (same position as MVC). In St Louis, both Sting and MVC finished 5th and went to a bid playoff. MVC beat Sting in the first playoff match forcing Sting to play D1 for the last bid (Sting did beat D1 and got the last bid). Then in So Cal, Sting finished 21st (MVC finished 17th). Sting absolutely turned it around two weeks later at nationals, finishing a very impressive 5th. Looking only at their national finish last year is not indicative of their performance in the major tournaments during the year. I guess if there is a tourney to perform your best at, it's nationals. Any way you look at it, that is a talented group and I look forward to seeing them again this year.
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Post by dadovball on Dec 1, 2015 9:29:22 GMT -5
I think there is pretty good coaching in the state. I have not seen many nationals, but what I did see, and I got to see all the teams, 13s and up except the Southport Team - congrats on a great run at nationals last year - was, that as a group, Wisconsin/Midwest teams did not pass as well as CA teams. It was that simple. Folks on the forum need a little perspective, we don't have great talent throughout, key word is throughout, any team period. And with MVC and Sting splitting talent, and Southport, Lake Country, (Spike 14s this year I think) and others fielding really good teams, we are going to struggle on the 3rd and 4th days of big tournaments going up against slightly better talent, especially when the other team passes better. My conclusion is that they just touch the ball more often in CA than kids do in the Midwest. MVC 18s and Sting 17s were only a couple points from advancing at Nationals, and a couple passes away from competing for a title. That is pretty good. No other Midwest team made Gold in 17s - none, from a team that as far as I know, has only 2, only 2, that know where they will play in college.
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Post by dadovball on Dec 1, 2015 9:55:08 GMT -5
Specifically regarding coaching. If MVC had taken 5th at Nationals last year at any level it would be plastered all over their web site, as it should be. I don't know club coaches very well, but if they are anything like a good high school coach, they build for the end of the year. As a dad, here is what I look for in a coach.
1) Are the kids developing, are all the kids developing at all skills and all the positions, even at the higher age groups 2) Is the coach playing around with Chemistry early in the season and giving every kid the opportunity to be successful at a tournament. 3) Do the boys learn how to conduct themselves after success and failure, cause for most of these boys, High School senior year is the last time they will play competitive ball, but they will have failure and success their whole life. 4) Do they learn how to contribute to a high performing team, high performing being relative to where they started 5) Do they peak at the end of the season? IMO it does no good to take 1st at a qualifier and then fall out of competition on day two of Nationals.
As a dad, this is crappy coaching - never or rarely playing any player - even the worst on the team - in a match that counts. A match that counts is an early tournament pool play match when the result is still in doubt. As a dad, I can't tell you coaches how much that sucks - absolutely sucks to see kids who work hard in practice never get a chance to contribute to the level they are able. I know the mantra "everyone has equal playing time in practice" and that works great for Varsity sports, but parents are paying for their kids to have an experience. So if you don't think a kid can play in your program - don't put him on the team. Seriously - don't select him to be part of your program. Cause if you select him to be on the team, you must believe that he can contribute. And if he "can't contribute" down the road, if he was good enough to make the team, it might just be a coaching issue. If that means you only have 10 boys on the team - then you have to make due with 10. But, if you take a kid, accept the $ from the family (and some of these kids have to work to pay for their own club fees) play the kid period. And I know that there are "no promises" made at the beginning of the season and playing time is "earned". To that I say, congratulations on being able to manipulate a 13 to 17 year old boy.....Well done!
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Post by gettinpiggywithit on Dec 1, 2015 10:58:05 GMT -5
Midwest Penguins 16's has a 6'8" outside hitter. Kid already has interest from Ohio State and Penn State. Possibly the most underrated player in the state. They could be a national championship caliber team with that weapon!
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Post by midwestparent on Dec 1, 2015 11:30:51 GMT -5
Specifically regarding coaching. If MVC had taken 5th at Nationals last year at any level it would be plastered all over their web site, as it should be. I don't know club coaches very well, but if they are anything like a good high school coach, they build for the end of the year. As a dad, here is what I look for in a coach. 1) Are the kids developing, are all the kids developing at all skills and all the positions, even at the higher age groups 2) Is the coach playing around with Chemistry early in the season and giving every kid the opportunity to be successful at a tournament. 3) Do the boys learn how to conduct themselves after success and failure, cause for most of these boys, High School senior year is the last time they will play competitive ball, but they will have failure and success their whole life. 4) Do they learn how to contribute to a high performing team, high performing being relative to where they started 5) Do they peak at the end of the season? IMO it does no good to take 1st at a qualifier and then fall out of competition on day two of Nationals. As a dad, this is crappy coaching - never or rarely playing any player - even the worst on the team - in a match that counts. A match that counts is an early tournament pool play match when the result is still in doubt. As a dad, I can't tell you coaches how much that sucks - absolutely sucks to see kids who work hard in practice never get a chance to contribute to the level they are able. I know the mantra "everyone has equal playing time in practice" and that works great for Varsity sports, but parents are paying for their kids to have an experience. So if you don't think a kid can play in your program - don't put him on the team. Seriously - don't select him to be part of your program. Cause if you select him to be on the team, you must believe that he can contribute. And if he "can't contribute" down the road, if he was good enough to make the team, it might just be a coaching issue. If that means you only have 10 boys on the team - then you have to make due with 10. But, if you take a kid, accept the $ from the family (and some of these kids have to work to pay for their own club fees) play the kid period. And I know that there are "no promises" made at the beginning of the season and playing time is "earned". To that I say, congratulations on being able to manipulate a 13 to 17 year old boy.....Well done! As a parent who has been around club volleyball for 10+ years and counting, I disagree with your assessment of "crappy coaching". I know as a parent that there is a chance my child may not get the playing time he/we would like to see. At this level, it's about putting the best players on the floor at any given time. (Especially late in tournaments) There are times when a certain group of kids are playing better together than others, and the coach may play the hot hand. It sucks as a parent to be the odd one out (which we have been on multiple occasions) but that's as much a part of growing as a player and a young adult, as is having the chance to be on the floor. At the end of the day, we want our children to have a good experience, and I would say that most club coaches foster that opportunity.
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Post by volleybro11 on Dec 1, 2015 12:11:27 GMT -5
Midwest Penguins 16's has a 6'8" outside hitter. Kid already has interest from Ohio State and Penn State. Possibly the most underrated player in the state. They could be a national championship caliber team with that weapon! I don't know if one player can make a team great. Seeing that I have never even heard of this team, I don't really think they will be able to compete well on the national level, especially if they only have one great player. Do you have any info on the other players on the team?
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Post by gettinpiggywithit on Dec 1, 2015 12:18:12 GMT -5
Specifically regarding coaching. If MVC had taken 5th at Nationals last year at any level it would be plastered all over their web site, as it should be. I don't know club coaches very well, but if they are anything like a good high school coach, they build for the end of the year. As a dad, here is what I look for in a coach. 1) Are the kids developing, are all the kids developing at all skills and all the positions, even at the higher age groups 2) Is the coach playing around with Chemistry early in the season and giving every kid the opportunity to be successful at a tournament. 3) Do the boys learn how to conduct themselves after success and failure, cause for most of these boys, High School senior year is the last time they will play competitive ball, but they will have failure and success their whole life. 4) Do they learn how to contribute to a high performing team, high performing being relative to where they started 5) Do they peak at the end of the season? IMO it does no good to take 1st at a qualifier and then fall out of competition on day two of Nationals. As a dad, this is crappy coaching - never or rarely playing any player - even the worst on the team - in a match that counts. A match that counts is an early tournament pool play match when the result is still in doubt. As a dad, I can't tell you coaches how much that sucks - absolutely sucks to see kids who work hard in practice never get a chance to contribute to the level they are able. I know the mantra "everyone has equal playing time in practice" and that works great for Varsity sports, but parents are paying for their kids to have an experience. So if you don't think a kid can play in your program - don't put him on the team. Seriously - don't select him to be part of your program. Cause if you select him to be on the team, you must believe that he can contribute. And if he "can't contribute" down the road, if he was good enough to make the team, it might just be a coaching issue. If that means you only have 10 boys on the team - then you have to make due with 10. But, if you take a kid, accept the $ from the family (and some of these kids have to work to pay for their own club fees) play the kid period. And I know that there are "no promises" made at the beginning of the season and playing time is "earned". To that I say, congratulations on being able to manipulate a 13 to 17 year old boy.....Well done! As a parent who has been around club volleyball for 10+ years and counting, I disagree with your assessment of "crappy coaching". I know as a parent that there is a chance my child may not get the playing time he/we would like to see. At this level, it's about putting the best players on the floor at any given time. (Especially late in tournaments) There are times when a certain group of kids are playing better together than others, and the coach may play the hot hand. It sucks as a parent to be the odd one out (which we have been on multiple occasions) but that's as much a part of growing as a player and a young adult, as is having the chance to be on the floor. At the end of the day, we want our children to have a good experience, and I would say that most club coaches foster that opportunity. I agree with midwestparent here. There's only 6 spots on the floor and probably 12 guys on a team...do the math. As much as we all want everybody to play, that can and never will happen. There is no coach out there at any top club that will risk a bid to nationals or a chance at getting gold to satisfy the players. Not every players role is to go out on the court and shine. Some players have roles of making practices competitive and getting the starters better. Solution to your problem: find another club or don't play at all.
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Post by unlucky on Dec 1, 2015 13:03:48 GMT -5
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Post by dadovball on Dec 1, 2015 14:44:10 GMT -5
Good article, and I agree with it 98%. It would be great if, as the article says, when the last offer was given to the 12 best player the message was, "Hey, we really want you to be on the team so you can push the other guys in practice. You probably won't see the floor much in games but you will get better at our club than you will anywhere else because of the kind of program we run and the boys with which you will practice." Sadly, I have just never heard of that kind of message being delivered ... ever. Most of you appear to have more experience with club and maybe other clubs at other age levels are delivering that message when they give an offer. What I have heard is, "You will be a starter for us." and then the kid rides the bench, rightly or wrongly, half way through the season. What is for sure wrong is to make that kind of promise on the front end. Maybe I just don't have enough experience, but if the programs do have that "you won't play much but we really want you on the team" conversation with someone before they accept, please let me know. And, if you have been around club for 10 years, you have seen kids who almost never see the floor. Which is 100% different than not seeing the kind of time he would like to see. I do mean nearly never. The article says that playing time is earned in this way, “I can promise you that if you work really hard & display a team first attitude, then you stand a great chance of playing but under no circumstance do I promise playing time." No where does the dude say "if you give us the best chance to win" He kind of implies that all you need is a team first attitude and hard work. I completely agree with that. Here is where I depart from the article. Coaches, you are obligated to coach the boys to get on the floor, unless you told them otherwise in the selection process. Regardless, coach them. You need to communicate and work with them so that they have a path to the floor, and everyone's path is different. There are plenty of games where the result will be the same if players 1-3 and 7-9 are on the floor instead of 1-6. Same for 4-6 and 9-12. We have all seen great practice players who don't translate to competition, perhaps because their coach only played the top 6, and they had the crappy luck to be #8 on the best team in the region, but they were never told that during the offer process. I don't think the cases of boys not seeing the court ever are very prevalent, and if they are attitudinal I understand them better, they need to be addressed with good coaching, but if a kid works hard and has a team first mentality, they should see the floor on a regular, not necessarily frequent, basis, especially the younger they are. And parents - ask about the club your son is trying out for. Find out what their policy is. Take the lead and if you get a bad vibe, regardless about how good a name the club has, look for the best place for your son. It might be on a better club where they only compete in practice. For others it might be leaning how to compete in tournament competition for a team that has less success.
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