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Post by Hawk Attack on Feb 14, 2018 10:02:11 GMT -5
”you f*cked me in March, and now you’re f*cking me over” does not read as “fairly professional” to me... True. I'll certainly agree with you on that. Overall, I thought they were fairly tame. That bit, though... Yeah, that line was certainly the most brazen. The entirety of that letter was an attempt at emotional blackmail. If it were to have been professional like you described, I would’ve expected to see mention of a contractual or stated agreement to receive compensation for services. Instead, it was “I helped you with (x) therefore you owe me (x). I helped you with (y) therefore you owe me (y).” In the letter, KR was seeking compensation for what she felt like she was owed out of guilt and obligation, not out of agreed upon compensation (and with zero insinuation or hint of allegations she supposedly already knew about). I don’t think any part of the letter was professional at all, and that’s fine, KR and RB had a long personal relationship and hard feelings aren’t out of bounds. But to paint Rogness as a professional in this situation is revisionist history.
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Post by dgo on Feb 14, 2018 10:05:21 GMT -5
True. I'll certainly agree with you on that. Overall, I thought they were fairly tame. That bit, though... Yeah, that line was certainly the most brazen. The entirety of that letter was an attempt at emotional blackmail. If it were to have been professional like you described, I would’ve expected to see mention of a contractual or stated agreement to receive compensation for services. Instead, it was “I helped you with (x) therefore you owe me (x). I helped you with (y) therefore you owe me (y).” In the letter, KR was seeking compensation for what she felt like she was owed out of guilt and obligation, not out of agreed upon compensation (and with zero insinuation or hint of allegations she supposedly already knew about). I don’t think any part of the letter was professional at all, and that’s fine, KR and RB had a long personal relationship and hard feelings aren’t out of bounds. But to paint Rogness as a professional in this situation is revisionist history. And you're pointing to one letter out of about 5-6 that Cheryl posted. Yes, that was an angry letter. The rest of the letters were very different. Ignoring those letters in this situation and focusing on just one is also revisionist history.
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Post by maɡˈnōlēə on Feb 14, 2018 10:07:07 GMT -5
Yeah, that line was certainly the most brazen. The entirety of that letter was an attempt at emotional blackmail. If it were to have been professional like you described, I would’ve expected to see mention of a contractual or stated agreement to receive compensation for services. Instead, it was “I helped you with (x) therefore you owe me (x). I helped you with (y) therefore you owe me (y).” In the letter, KR was seeking compensation for what she felt like she was owed out of guilt and obligation, not out of agreed upon compensation (and with zero insinuation or hint of allegations she supposedly already knew about). I don’t think any part of the letter was professional at all, and that’s fine, KR and RB had a long personal relationship and hard feelings aren’t out of bounds. But to paint Rogness as a professional in this situation is revisionist history. And you're pointing to one letter out of about 5-6 that Cheryl posted. Yes, that was an angry letter. The rest of the letters were very different. Ignoring those letters in this situation and focusing on just one is also revisionist history. Plus the accountant story I mentioned. There's enough there to be suspect IMO. Her law schooling might've made her aware that she better clean up her letter writing act.
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Post by moderndaycoach on Feb 14, 2018 10:08:20 GMT -5
Anyway just a personal perspective. I just have a hard time with the narrative that KR is a feel good motherly type that has regret after she was jilted out of what she believed was a partnership (although after reading Cheryl's story yesterday I do believe my hunch on KR is more right than I could've known). I thought the stuff on KR in Cheryl's story was a whole bunch of nothing. To me, it was really, really underwhelming. Cheryl tries to pass it off as a seriously acrimonious break-up of their business relationship, and I didn't see it that way at all. I've been involved in a lot of similar transactions, and if the letters Cheryl posted are the worst of it, it was a fairly tame transaction. Cheryl characterizes the letters as furious, and I interpreted them as fairly professional but frustrated. I've seen a lot worse. In my opinion, it just didn't support the narrative Cheryl is pushing ( i.e., disgruntled former business partner who is seeking revenge after being forced out). I don't think it was nothing, Kay knew about the kids and I think that will always be the knock on her. When she left she either lost some interest in the business or just could not address the same time and attention that was needed to grow the business as rick wanted to. Their relationship clearly diminished and rick was probably f*cking her in more way than one which just upped the tension when people started picking sides.
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Post by Hawk Attack on Feb 14, 2018 10:15:29 GMT -5
Yeah, that line was certainly the most brazen. The entirety of that letter was an attempt at emotional blackmail. If it were to have been professional like you described, I would’ve expected to see mention of a contractual or stated agreement to receive compensation for services. Instead, it was “I helped you with (x) therefore you owe me (x). I helped you with (y) therefore you owe me (y).” In the letter, KR was seeking compensation for what she felt like she was owed out of guilt and obligation, not out of agreed upon compensation (and with zero insinuation or hint of allegations she supposedly already knew about). I don’t think any part of the letter was professional at all, and that’s fine, KR and RB had a long personal relationship and hard feelings aren’t out of bounds. But to paint Rogness as a professional in this situation is revisionist history. And you're pointing to one letter out of about 5-6 that Cheryl posted. Yes, that was an angry letter. The rest of the letters were very different. Ignoring those letters in this situation and focusing on just one is also revisionist history. I would not describe the other letters as “very different”, they followed a repeated pattern of frustration over not being given what she FELT she was owed. Which again, I would also not describe as professional.
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Post by dgo on Feb 14, 2018 10:24:30 GMT -5
And you're pointing to one letter out of about 5-6 that Cheryl posted. Yes, that was an angry letter. The rest of the letters were very different. Ignoring those letters in this situation and focusing on just one is also revisionist history. I would not describe the other letters as “very different”, they followed a repeated pattern of frustration over not being given what she FELT she was owed. Which again, I would also not describe as professional. I guess we'll agree to disagree on that (although "frustration" was the word I used in my initial post). That's essentially the tone of pretty much every similar deal I've been involved in over the years. Also, those other letters were much more about being frustrated that she was not being given what had been agreed to in earlier conversations. Again, fairly typical stuff in a dissolution.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2018 10:25:41 GMT -5
No one comes out of this looking good.
As for KR, I am a cynic. Why wait so long to report things? Guilt? Waiting for the payments to be finished? If she knew this had happened, starting with the first victim--then I'm almost as mad at her because saying something right away would have kept 3+ other teenagers safe.
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Post by dgo on Feb 14, 2018 10:34:27 GMT -5
No one comes out of this looking good. As for KR, I am a cynic. Why wait so long to report things? Guilt? Waiting for the payments to be finished? If she knew this had happened, starting with the first victim--then I'm almost as mad at her because saying something right away would have kept 3+ other teenagers safe. For the record, I'm not trying to defend KR in this. At all. By her own admission, she knew what was going on. Also, as Cheryl said, none of the letters said anything whatsoever about inappropriate relationships with players. My comments above only related to the "disgruntled business partner" motive that Cheryl is pushing. In my opinion, the letters don't support that. Frankly, in my opinion, the letters would tend to support a "jilted lover" motive more than a business motive.
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Post by maɡˈnōlēə on Feb 14, 2018 10:36:31 GMT -5
No one comes out of this looking good. As for KR, I am a cynic. Why wait so long to report things? Guilt? Waiting for the payments to be finished? If she knew this had happened, starting with the first victim--then I'm almost as mad at her because saying something right away would have kept 3+ other teenagers safe. For the record, I'm not trying to defend KR in this. At all. By her own admission, she knew what was going on. Also, as Cheryl said, none of the letters said anything whatsoever about inappropriate relationships with players. My comments above only related to the "disgruntled business partner" motive that Cheryl is pushing. In my opinion, the letters don't support that. Frankly, in my opinion, the letters would tend to support a "jilted lover" motive more than a business motive. But is there a difference. So many years later and this is still going on. None of them look good in the harsh hindsight.
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Post by dgo on Feb 14, 2018 10:37:57 GMT -5
For the record, I'm not trying to defend KR in this. At all. By her own admission, she knew what was going on. Also, as Cheryl said, none of the letters said anything whatsoever about inappropriate relationships with players. My comments above only related to the "disgruntled business partner" motive that Cheryl is pushing. In my opinion, the letters don't support that. Frankly, in my opinion, the letters would tend to support a "jilted lover" motive more than a business motive. But is there a difference. So many years later and this is still going on. None of them look good in the harsh hindsight. If by "none of them" you mean Rick, Cheryl and Kay, I'm with you completely.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2018 11:13:29 GMT -5
No one comes out of this looking good. As for KR, I am a cynic. Why wait so long to report things? Guilt? Waiting for the payments to be finished? If she knew this had happened, starting with the first victim--then I'm almost as mad at her because saying something right away would have kept 3+ other teenagers safe. For the record, I'm not trying to defend KR in this. At all. By her own admission, she knew what was going on. Also, as Cheryl said, none of the letters said anything whatsoever about inappropriate relationships with players. My comments above only related to the "disgruntled business partner" motive that Cheryl is pushing. In my opinion, the letters don't support that. Frankly, in my opinion, the letters would tend to support a "jilted lover" motive more than a business motive. It was not a comment directed at you. I would agree the 'jilted lover' aspect is there as well without question. I just don't like that KR gets to be the 'good guy' in this--when her silence meant the abuse happened to multiple people.
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Post by maɡˈnōlēə on Feb 14, 2018 11:18:33 GMT -5
I said none of them and I mean it. None of them.
Shirts on teen players at AAU Championships intending to start dramas is not good. Powers Barnhard could at the very least be accused of bad judgment. Suing the AAU when she was fully aware that Butler was going to be there is just disingenuous. I may be the only one that says it out loud but plenty of people agree with the sentiment. She chose to go there with her team(s), no one forced her into that situation.
In the other case a sister who continues to play for Rick after her sister alleges he raped her. I'm not saying the Bonnie was wrong for continuing her volleyball career at SPRI but one has to question why she was allowed to play for Rick if their parents really truly believed he was a rapist.
Because the story has SO many nuances and accusations and sides of the story maybe in this case the "victims" should be scrutinized more than just at whatever the current story is.
The narrative pushed is one of Rick being a child molester but once anyone starts digging and reading into the story they come out going "WAIT. NOT THAT SIMPLE." There are just too many sides to this that are and forever will be unresolved. This isn't a simple cut and dry case and will never be.
Allegations against Nassar, his groping and taking multiple girls a day into his private office to physically molest, girls as young as SIX. No emotional or financial attachments or issues--that's far more cut and dry then this huge mess.
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Post by mervinswerved on Feb 14, 2018 11:27:12 GMT -5
Rick Butler admitted to sleeping with SPRI athletes. His long-stated defenses is that "It was the 80's, things were different."
The breach of coaching ethics alone should warrant a ban from USA Volleyball and preclude him from working with youth athletes.
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Post by maɡˈnōlēə on Feb 14, 2018 11:27:43 GMT -5
I said none of them and I mean it. None of them. Shirts on teen players at AAU Championships intending to start dramas is not good. Powers Barnhard could at the very least be accused of bad judgment. Suing the AAU when she was fully aware that Butler was going to be there is just disingenuous. I may be the only one that says it out loud but plenty of people agree with the sentiment. She chose to go there with her team(s), no one forced her into that situation. In the other case a sister who continues to play for Rick after her sister alleges he raped her. I'm not saying the Bonnie was wrong for continuing her volleyball career at SPRI but one has to question why she was allowed to play for Rick if their parents really truly believed he was a rapist. Because the story has SO many nuances and accusations and sides of the story maybe in this case the "victims" should be scrutinized more than just at whatever the current story is. The narrative pushed is one of Rick being a child molester but once anyone starts digging and reading into the story they come out going "WAIT. NOT THAT SIMPLE." There are just too many sides to this that are and forever will be unresolved. This isn't a simple cut and dry case and will never be. Allegations against Nassar, his groping and taking multiple girls a day into his private office to physically molest, girls as young as SIX. No emotional or financial attachments or issues--that's far more cut and dry then this huge mess. All of this being said I think that these women have had real damage done to them: emotionally. at the very least Some of them obviously suffer some form of PTSD and my hope for them is healing. The worse thing any of us could experience is repeated internal unhealed trauma. I am not siding with Rick and Cheryl, I am simply stating that in this mess not a one comes up looking good. Not Cheryl, not Rick for sure, not a one.
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Post by knowthetruth on Feb 14, 2018 11:47:21 GMT -5
I said none of them and I mean it. None of them. Shirts on teen players at AAU Championships intending to start dramas is not good. Powers Barnhard could at the very least be accused of bad judgment. Suing the AAU when she was fully aware that Butler was going to be there is just disingenuous. I may be the only one that says it out loud but plenty of people agree with the sentiment. She chose to go there with her team(s), no one forced her into that situation. In the other case a sister who continues to play for Rick after her sister alleges he raped her. I'm not saying the Bonnie was wrong for continuing her volleyball career at SPRI but one has to question why she was allowed to play for Rick if their parents really truly believed he was a rapist. Because the story has SO many nuances and accusations and sides of the story maybe in this case the "victims" should be scrutinized more than just at whatever the current story is. The narrative pushed is one of Rick being a child molester but once anyone starts digging and reading into the story they come out going "WAIT. NOT THAT SIMPLE." There are just too many sides to this that are and forever will be unresolved. This isn't a simple cut and dry case and will never be. Allegations against Nassar, his groping and taking multiple girls a day into his private office to physically molest, girls as young as SIX. No emotional or financial attachments or issues--that's far more cut and dry then this huge mess. You have made some good points but, in my opinion are way off on others.
You are so worried about other girls at SP not getting punished for the actions of the rapist but apparently girls that play for Sarah do not get the same benefit. They should have skipped a huge tournament because she didn't want to face her rapist. How is that fair to those players.
Sarah is a hero for suing AAU and getting the fight back started. It was all about AAU abiding by the policy's they have in place.
The Tshirts were awesome and supported a victim in a time she needed it the most. If this was uncomfortable for girls and parents that go to a known rapist, tough sh-t. You made your choice.
I am highly offended by "the narrative pushed" comment. Butler is a child molester and it is that simple. VERY CUT AND DRY.
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