|
Post by mikegarrison on May 29, 2018 18:39:09 GMT -5
That's 3 in the last 14 years, and their are 5 positions. Mike and Kobe played the 2 and they took 11. Duncan took 5 at the 4. Bron took 3 at the 3. Great dominant players come from every position. Centre or the 5 is the position that is dying. Last big man to win a Chip for their team was Shag. If the Rockets could hit 3 for 14 (much less 25) they would be in the Finals. And I think you actually made my point by naming many championships not won by PG centric teams. I was not aware that you had "a point" as such.
|
|
|
Post by Sorry Ass Sal on May 29, 2018 18:42:52 GMT -5
If the Rockets could hit 3 for 14 (much less 25) they would be in the Finals. And I think you actually made my point by naming many championships not won by PG centric teams. I was not aware that you had "a point" as such. I thought I made that point when I said "point guards don't win championships". Much like the Curry/Paul discussion on best PG, definitions needed. When I say pg's don't win championships, I mean teams built around the pg position are not common Finals winners. As in, you don't win a championship by building around your pg. Golden State did in 2015. That is an anomaly.
|
|
|
Post by mikegarrison on May 29, 2018 19:04:20 GMT -5
Oh yeah, right. You made a clearly erroneous claim. When it was disproved, you moved the goalposts to just the last 25 years. When that was also disproved, you moved them again from "don't win championships" to "don't win championships very often".
And since Curry is himself the recent exception to your rule, as you admit, then so what? Because Curry's team is playing again. It's not like you can say, "Steph Curry is good, sure, but not good enough. He's no Steph Curry."
|
|
|
Post by Sorry Ass Sal on May 29, 2018 19:18:13 GMT -5
Oh yeah, right. You made a clearly erroneous claim. When it was disproved, you moved the goalposts to just the last 25 years. When that was also disproved, you moved them again from "don't win championships" to "don't win championships very often". And since Curry is himself the recent exception to your rule, as you admit, then so what? Because Curry's team is playing again. It's not like you can say, "Steph Curry is good, sure, but not good enough. He's no Steph Curry." Ok, I should have clarified in my original post. I didn't know it would cause such a debate. I wasn't intending to be literal with my initial statement. It was a generality that teams built around the pg position have, historically, not been championship winners. That is true. You mentioned one (Magic) as if it blew my whole point out of the water. And I said 25 years because that's how long I've been following the nba. I have little knowledge of much before that. And three examples out of 14 is nowhere near evidence of the opposite. What the Warriors are doing is rare, not the norm. In the future, I'll try to better clarify my posts. And please ask for clarification.
|
|
|
Post by hammer on May 29, 2018 20:51:46 GMT -5
It can't be any clearer -- I will put all my money on LeBron and the Cavs!
|
|
|
Post by BearClause on May 29, 2018 22:55:58 GMT -5
Oh yeah, right. You made a clearly erroneous claim. When it was disproved, you moved the goalposts to just the last 25 years. When that was also disproved, you moved them again from "don't win championships" to "don't win championships very often". And since Curry is himself the recent exception to your rule, as you admit, then so what? Because Curry's team is playing again. It's not like you can say, "Steph Curry is good, sure, but not good enough. He's no Steph Curry." Ok, I should have clarified in my original post. I didn't know it would cause such a debate. I wasn't intending to be literal with my initial statement. It was a generality that teams built around the pg position have, historically, not been championship winners. That is true. You mentioned one (Magic) as if it blew my whole point out of the water. And I said 25 years because that's how long I've been following the nba. I have little knowledge of much before that. And three examples out of 14 is nowhere near evidence of the opposite. What the Warriors are doing is rare, not the norm. In the future, I'll try to better clarify my posts. And please ask for clarification. Curry isn't really traditional point guard. He's nominally the point guard, but the Warriors don't employ a point guard dominated offense. Everyone on the floor touches the ball and the assist just goes to the last player to pass it. Curry is a scorer, but also the best outside shooter in the history of basketball. The Warriors play more or less positionless basketball. They'll have Curry, Green, Durant, and sometimes even Thompson bring up the ball and set up the offense before the first pass.
|
|
|
Post by Sorry Ass Sal on May 30, 2018 0:43:15 GMT -5
Ok, I should have clarified in my original post. I didn't know it would cause such a debate. I wasn't intending to be literal with my initial statement. It was a generality that teams built around the pg position have, historically, not been championship winners. That is true. You mentioned one (Magic) as if it blew my whole point out of the water. And I said 25 years because that's how long I've been following the nba. I have little knowledge of much before that. And three examples out of 14 is nowhere near evidence of the opposite. What the Warriors are doing is rare, not the norm. In the future, I'll try to better clarify my posts. And please ask for clarification. Curry isn't really traditional point guard. He's nominally the point guard, but the Warriors don't employ a point guard dominated offense. Everyone on the floor touches the ball and the assist just goes to the last player to pass it. Curry is a scorer, but also the best outside shooter in the history of basketball. The Warriors play more or less positionless basketball. They'll have Curry, Green, Durant, and sometimes even Thompson bring up the ball and set up the offense before the first pass. Right. So we can take 2015 off the list of pg centric teams.
|
|
|
Post by Stanlifornia on May 30, 2018 9:31:19 GMT -5
Dubs fan through and through since I moved to the Bay Area in 2004, and Curry is absolutely the Warriors best player.
KD does a whole lot and might fill up the stat sheet more than Steph, but it's just different when they both catch fire. Generally speaking when Durant is playing insane, the games are either dangerously close or we're down. When Curry is on fire, it's a blowout.
It's a luxury to have both on the team, but Curry is the tide that lifts all the boats.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2018 13:22:29 GMT -5
I think all this argument has proven is 1) point guards are hard to define, 2) the game is changing regarding defining ANY position and 3) true point guards are going to be seriously underappreciated -- by definition, they make other players look like the stars.
The better question is: Is their an actual formula for building an NBA championship team? I would say there is not. "Get yourself a Lebron James" is not a formula.
|
|
|
Post by Sorry Ass Sal on May 30, 2018 13:26:09 GMT -5
I think all this argument has proven is 1) point guards are hard to define, 2) the game is changing regarding defining ANY position and 3) true point guards are going to be seriously underappreciated -- by definition, they make other players look like the stars. The better question is: Is their an actual formula for building an NBA championship team? I would say there is not. "Get yourself a Lebron James" is not a formula. I can tell you what's not a formula- building around a point guard.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2018 13:38:39 GMT -5
How can you tell that?
Is Houston not a legitimate title contender? If you say yes, then I think one could make the argument you are undervaluing Chris Paul (and games 6 and 7 would seem to back this up).
It sure seems to me that the formula right now is to either have arguably the best player of all time or one of the most unique teams of all time. Good luck repeating that.
There is no formula. That would be my conclusion. Other than good fortune and/or accumulating MANY good to great players.
|
|
|
Post by Northern lights on May 30, 2018 13:39:53 GMT -5
I think all this argument has proven is 1) point guards are hard to define, 2) the game is changing regarding defining ANY position and 3) true point guards are going to be seriously underappreciated -- by definition, they make other players look like the stars. The better question is: Is their an actual formula for building an NBA championship team? I would say there is not. "Get yourself a Lebron James" is not a formula. I can tell you what's not a formula- building around a point guard. Teams currently building around a point guard. Portland Damian Lillard, Boston Kyrie Irving, Golden State Steph, Indiana Oladipo, Toronto Kyle Lowry, Charlotte Kemba Walker, Oklahoma Russ Westbrook, Los Angeles Lakers Lonzo Ball, Houston Rockets Chris Paul(Paul drives that team not Harden, same as Paul drove Clippers before the trade), Washington John Wall, Chicago before Rose got hurt, Memphis Mike Conley, Lebron plays the point for Cleveland on offence, Pheonix Devin Booker, Brooklyn D'angelo Russell, Miami Goran Dragic. You need to stop this.
|
|
|
Post by hammer on May 30, 2018 14:40:02 GMT -5
Almost all point guards are fantastic dribblers such that they can penetrate and finish (if necessary). Secondly, they "see the floor" better than most other NBA players and they will give up their shot and hit an open teammate with a pass (that hopefully leads to an assist). Curry definitely fits criteria #1, dribble drive to the bucket and score (or dish). Curry in a couple of ways fails criteria #2, but that's not all bad since he's such a great shooter. He may be above average seeing the floor and distributing the ball, but he's not at a Magic Johnson, Stockton, or Chris Paul level. And, of course, he looks for his own shot a lot, which is quite understandable. GSW really rolls when he's shooting the ball accurately because it creates so much space for the other shooters and it opens up cuts, backdoors, etc.
|
|
|
Post by Sorry Ass Sal on May 30, 2018 15:10:40 GMT -5
I can tell you what's not a formula- building around a point guard. Teams currently building around a point guard. Portland Damian Lillard, Boston Kyrie Irving, Golden State Steph, Indiana Oladipo, Toronto Kyle Lowry, Charlotte Kemba Walker, Oklahoma Russ Westbrook, Los Angeles Lakers Lonzo Ball, Houston Rockets Chris Paul(Paul drives that team not Harden, same as Paul drove Clippers before the trade), Washington John Wall, Chicago before Rose got hurt, Memphis Mike Conley, Lebron plays the point for Cleveland on offence, Pheonix Devin Booker, Brooklyn D'angelo Russell, Miami Goran Dragic. You need to stop this. LeBron is not a point guard. George Hill is the starting point guard for the Cavs. How many of those teams have won a championship?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2018 15:23:45 GMT -5
There is no common factor. I defy you to come up with one.
An above-average point guard is as good a place to start as any. Pretty rare that a team wins a championship without one.
|
|