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Post by maɡˈnōlēə on Feb 12, 2019 7:11:24 GMT -5
A weird obsession with other people's' debt. This is discoverable during some point in the legal process I'm sure and will be available to those intimately involved in the suit. Not sure why we are speculating for public consumption except 1) to shame 2) idle gossip or 3) some agenda many of us are unaware of. The facility itself is one of the finest in the Nation for the sport, no one disputes that. Why some posters feel to have a need to know all aspects of Butler's existence is head scratch worthy and strangely obsessive. Trying to understand their current financial situation helps us understand how likely they are to stay there instead of go away like most people want them to. How messed up is it that the people trying to see how close a child molester is to being forced away from children are being called weird, strange, obsessive instead of the guy coming to the defense of the child molester? ikamtm I find no way possible for what you said in your last post to be true with all the work they have poured into that place. Maybe you know more than the rest of us and would like to shed some light on the situation? Why does it matter to you if they stay there? It is capitalism after all?! Weirldy enough following other clubs social media accounts, following this thread, hearing about the changes made to WCPL...aren't you afraid that if "they" leave that the fresh, workable ideas in volleyball, the biz of volleyball and the experience of players and spectators will dry up as many clubs like to copy SPRI's idea and never give credit. And before you lamblast me this is straight up observation. Just this thread alone is proof positive of what I will now see the 'SPRI effect'. Having a club if this caliber in the region should inspire everyone to do better. That's what competition does!
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Post by maɡˈnōlēə on Feb 12, 2019 7:18:26 GMT -5
Agree, they have not been at the current GLC for 30 years and I highly doubt they were liquid enough to just pony up for the original 8 courts in Aurora and all build-out work that went with it not to mention courts and volleyball necessities. Then they put a 4 court addition on, now factor in everything that goes with that other than your building structure (foundation, walls, roof, plumbing, electrical, hvac, etc.) and all the volleyball stuff necessary to play/train in there as well. Lets say that they didn't own the land that used to be "parking" where the additional 4 courts sit now, they had to purchase that land or whatever means necessary to build the addition. Like boh said, all the work they have dumped into that place on top of building the original 8 then the additional 4, and all planned and unforeseen maintenance that will come along as well, it would not be surprising at all if their mortgage was that high. However ikamtm has surprised us before with information that was new to this board and very informative so either she knows something we don't or she is just pulling an opinion out of her ass. I simply searched the DuPage County Recorder of Deeds website. From what I can piece together, pairing the mortgages and the releases, The last mortgage was taken out on 12/19/12 for $1,059,000.00. The only other I see was on 4/11/2005 for $2mil, I don't see a release, but there is an amendment to the mortgage on 5/29/2012, that references the 2005 mortgage. The amendment doesn't have an amount. I did see their Property Tax on the building was $83k last year and it looks like a land parcel, probably the parking lot with a tax of $3,600. So unless they've mortgaged through an entity that does not have to record documents, I would say the mortgage is actually more like $2.5 mil than $4.5 mil. Still a very substantial amount. When did they move in the new GLC? There is another release from a mortgage in 2004, but it doesn't show that mortgage number anywhere. There is a Modification agreement that also has an address of 3049 Weber Dr, that is bundled in on the $1,059,000.00 mortgage. Not sure what that address is, but it definitely is part of that mortgage. This is all public record and did not have to pay anything to get it or print it. Hope this explains my rationale earlier. "Counting other people's money" or debt in this case, "is a sin of comparison and this is a sin that steals your joy, your heart, your soul and your abilities to truly connect with others". ^ my grandmama used to say this and while I am not a religious person I do view comparison as a thief of joy. Again this is not not something that is up for public debate. Those in the know will make their determination. Again not sure why anyone outside of the intimate participation of the suit needs to be in the know.
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Post by boh on Feb 12, 2019 7:54:51 GMT -5
Trying to understand their current financial situation helps us understand how likely they are to stay there instead of go away like most people want them to. How messed up is it that the people trying to see how close a child molester is to being forced away from children are being called weird, strange, obsessive instead of the guy coming to the defense of the child molester? ikamtm I find no way possible for what you said in your last post to be true with all the work they have poured into that place. Maybe you know more than the rest of us and would like to shed some light on the situation? Why does it matter to you if they stay there? It is capitalism after all?! Weirldy enough following other clubs social media accounts, following this thread, hearing about the changes made to WCPL...aren't you afraid that if "they" leave that the fresh, workable ideas in volleyball, the biz of volleyball and the experience of players and spectators will dry up as many clubs like to copy SPRI's idea and never give credit. And before you lamblast me this is straight up observation. Just this thread alone is proof positive of what I will now see the 'SPRI effect'. Having a club if this caliber in the region should inspire everyone to do better. That's what competition does! It matters to me because if he is gone, then we have one less child abuser working with kids, plain and simple. If he wants to sell it to someone else and go live away from it all and feed volleyball advice to whoever buys it, fine. Just stay away from children. No I am not worried about what the volleyball community will be like without him. There are many brilliant volleyball minds in the area. Even if there were not and nobody could fill that void, I’d still want him gone. As far as what you said ikamtm doesn’t that just include the land being bought to build on? Not actually building the volleyball facility?
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ikamtm
Sophomore
Change does not roll in on the wheels of inevitability, but comes through continuous struggle.
Posts: 164
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Post by ikamtm on Feb 12, 2019 9:28:26 GMT -5
I simply searched the DuPage County Recorder of Deeds website. From what I can piece together, pairing the mortgages and the releases, The last mortgage was taken out on 12/19/12 for $1,059,000.00. The only other I see was on 4/11/2005 for $2mil, I don't see a release, but there is an amendment to the mortgage on 5/29/2012, that references the 2005 mortgage. The amendment doesn't have an amount. I did see their Property Tax on the building was $83k last year and it looks like a land parcel, probably the parking lot with a tax of $3,600. So unless they've mortgaged through an entity that does not have to record documents, I would say the mortgage is actually more like $2.5 mil than $4.5 mil. Still a very substantial amount. When did they move in the new GLC? There is another release from a mortgage in 2004, but it doesn't show that mortgage number anywhere. There is a Modification agreement that also has an address of 3049 Weber Dr, that is bundled in on the $1,059,000.00 mortgage. Not sure what that address is, but it definitely is part of that mortgage. This is all public record and did not have to pay anything to get it or print it. Hope this explains my rationale earlier. "Counting other people's money" or debt in this case, "is a sin of comparison and this is a sin that steals your joy, your heart, your soul and your abilities to truly connect with others". ^ my grandmama used to say this and while I am not a religious person I do view comparison as a thief of joy. Again this is not not something that is up for public debate. Those in the know will make their determination. Again not sure why anyone outside of the intimate participation of the suit needs to be in the know. I never would have brought it up if it were not 1st mentioned in "Our Story". They said they have a $4.5 mil mortgage on the building. You can't expect to make such a statement and not expect someone to check it out or rebut it. Why are you so hell bent on suppressing this information? Butler's certainly aren't or they would not have mentioned it. The statement did not make sense to me, so I checked on it. I thought they were shrewd enough not to be in that sort of debt and this stage in their lives. I think Rick is 64 years old. If he's owned the property for 15 years and the mortgage has escalated to $4.5 mil, why would they build their Oregon complex if they can't retire there? Who would buy a club that has a mortgage debt of $4.5 mil? If you believe no one would, then I would expect you've resolved yourself to working as a club director the rest of your life? Do you know the monthly payment on a $4.5 mil mortgage? Yikes, I would not be able to sleep at night I wasn't counting their money, just checking on statements made by them.
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ikamtm
Sophomore
Change does not roll in on the wheels of inevitability, but comes through continuous struggle.
Posts: 164
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Post by ikamtm on Feb 12, 2019 9:31:18 GMT -5
Why does it matter to you if they stay there? It is capitalism after all?! Weirldy enough following other clubs social media accounts, following this thread, hearing about the changes made to WCPL...aren't you afraid that if "they" leave that the fresh, workable ideas in volleyball, the biz of volleyball and the experience of players and spectators will dry up as many clubs like to copy SPRI's idea and never give credit. And before you lamblast me this is straight up observation. Just this thread alone is proof positive of what I will now see the 'SPRI effect'. Having a club if this caliber in the region should inspire everyone to do better. That's what competition does! It matters to me because if he is gone, then we have one less child abuser working with kids, plain and simple. If he wants to sell it to someone else and go live away from it all and feed volleyball advice to whoever buys it, fine. Just stay away from children. No I am not worried about what the volleyball community will be like without him. There are many brilliant volleyball minds in the area. Even if there were not and nobody could fill that void, I’d still want him gone. As far as what you said ikamtm doesn’t that just include the land being bought to build on? Not actually building the volleyball facility? I don't know if the mortgages are just land, building or both. I would assume any mortgage no matter what it represents would still have to be recoded?
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Post by moderndaycoach on Feb 12, 2019 9:34:21 GMT -5
Trying to understand their current financial situation helps us understand how likely they are to stay there instead of go away like most people want them to. How messed up is it that the people trying to see how close a child molester is to being forced away from children are being called weird, strange, obsessive instead of the guy coming to the defense of the child molester? ikamtm I find no way possible for what you said in your last post to be true with all the work they have poured into that place. Maybe you know more than the rest of us and would like to shed some light on the situation? Why does it matter to you if they stay there? It is capitalism after all?! Weirldy enough following other clubs social media accounts, following this thread, hearing about the changes made to WCPL...aren't you afraid that if "they" leave that the fresh, workable ideas in volleyball, the biz of volleyball and the experience of players and spectators will dry up as many clubs like to copy SPRI's idea and never give credit. And before you lamblast me this is straight up observation. Just this thread alone is proof positive of what I will now see the 'SPRI effect'. Having a club if this caliber in the region should inspire everyone to do better. That's what competition does! The whole Chicagoland volleyball wouldn't be what it is without rick butler and SPVB is a tired played out argument. Sure some people took ideas that he was implementing and tried to emulate them but it does not mean they were original. SPVB credits international training methods that they brought back, they talk about work shopping with college coaches to make sure they are preparing properly, all these things they are doing is because they have the ability to do so. Just because they had more money, space, and material to train the way they wanted does not mean that other people were/are not capable or knowledgeable of the same things just without the means to execute. Sure they have pushed the level of competition around here for years but it is because they made so much money so early it allowed them to have the time and space to offer what they do. I am 100% confident that the volleyball in this area would still be what it is without SPVB, so yes if that means a child predator is gone from the game forever then lets speed it up.
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Post by moderndaycoach on Feb 12, 2019 9:38:41 GMT -5
It matters to me because if he is gone, then we have one less child abuser working with kids, plain and simple. If he wants to sell it to someone else and go live away from it all and feed volleyball advice to whoever buys it, fine. Just stay away from children. No I am not worried about what the volleyball community will be like without him. There are many brilliant volleyball minds in the area. Even if there were not and nobody could fill that void, I’d still want him gone. As far as what you said ikamtm doesn’t that just include the land being bought to build on? Not actually building the volleyball facility? I don't know if the mortgages are just land, building or both. I would assume any mortgage no matter what it represents would still have to be recoded? Just like I doubt they were liquid enough to purchase the land and then build the structure, I seriously doubt they were liquid enough to put on the addition - there has to be more mortgages or loans out there we just don't know about. Years ago they started splitting up entities into different businesses and LLCs so I would not be shocked in the least if they had mortgages or loans spread out.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2019 10:29:07 GMT -5
I struggle to even know how to respond to you or your posts. You make random comments about how much of the information is old and rehashed, but make same old/rehashed arguments in defense of RB/CB (championships...never convicted) that has been played to death. Youth sports (and life!) are about more than championships and predators are not always convicted ( www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system ). Thank you for stating your opinion that a banned coach should be able to coach as long as s/he is not convicted. Since SOL has long passed and this is currently a civil matter, he will likely never be 'convicted' of anything, so I will just continue to publish newly available articles when possible and hope the current trend of ostracizing RB continues. I guess we all will just have to wait and see how this civil matter plays out, the obscure law that they are citing is one that is very hard to prove. That's why it is so obscure and hardly ever used. Seems the few people on this thread with so much hatred for this man pales in comparison to the thousands of past and present athletes and their parents that support him. The class action is going to have a hard time getting many plaintiffs. Couple of points: 1) You urge people to read entire threads so same old news is not repeated over and over (yet you either fail to do so yourself, or intentionally cherrypick misleading details) e.g. the obscure law you refer to is only part of the suit. specifically First and Second Cause of Action as outlined in the Complaint (pgs. 55-58). Causes 3-5 deal with Fraud and Fraudulent Concealment i.e. RB/CB/SPRI as an entity intentionally gave false narrative of RBs past. And Cause 6 is Unjust Enrichment. From docket #100, Judge Kennelly (pg 1) "She has asserted claims for common-law fraud, fraudulent concealment, and unjust enrichment, as well as violations of the Illinois Consumer Fraud Act and the Illinois Physical Fitness Services Act" 2) You say "the class action is going to have a hard time getting many plaintiffs" when in fact the certification of the suit as a class action took care of this already. Is this intentional misinformation, or are you unaware how class action suits work? You need to opt OUT of a class action suit, not opt IN. From docket #100, Judge Kennelly (pg. 19) "all individuals who paid money to the defendants for youth volleyball instruction through the Sports Performance program provided by or through GLV Inc. in the State of Illinois between February 27, 2013 and January 10, 2018". So thousands of families will have to opt OUT. Doing nothing means they are plaintiffs. Sorry for all this "old and rehashed" information. Feel it is necessary to keep the facts straights.
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Post by boh on Feb 12, 2019 10:45:35 GMT -5
It matters to me because if he is gone, then we have one less child abuser working with kids, plain and simple. If he wants to sell it to someone else and go live away from it all and feed volleyball advice to whoever buys it, fine. Just stay away from children. No I am not worried about what the volleyball community will be like without him. There are many brilliant volleyball minds in the area. Even if there were not and nobody could fill that void, I’d still want him gone. As far as what you said ikamtm doesn’t that just include the land being bought to build on? Not actually building the volleyball facility? I don't know if the mortgages are just land, building or both. I would assume any mortgage no matter what it represents would still have to be recoded? 4.5 million seems very cheap for all that land, an entire building, then an addition that is about half the size of the original building. Maybe not, I am certainly not good at this type of stuff so I am not saying you are wrong....I just feel like there is more debt than what you are finding. Like modernday said, it wouldn't surprise me if this was split into multiple mortgages that are just not found yet. Heck even I had multiple mortgages on my house to avoid tax originally, so certainly not out of the question for something as huge as that facility.
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Post by deohge on Feb 12, 2019 10:58:24 GMT -5
I guess we all will just have to wait and see how this civil matter plays out, the obscure law that they are citing is one that is very hard to prove. That's why it is so obscure and hardly ever used. Seems the few people on this thread with so much hatred for this man pales in comparison to the thousands of past and present athletes and their parents that support him. The class action is going to have a hard time getting many plaintiffs. Couple of points: 1) You urge people to read entire threads so same old news is not repeated over and over (yet you either fail to do so yourself, or intentionally cherrypick misleading details) e.g. the obscure law you refer to is only part of the suit. specifically First and Second Cause of Action as outlined in the Complaint (pgs. 55-58). Causes 3-5 deal with Fraud and Fraudulent Concealment i.e. RB/CB/SPRI as an entity intentionally gave false narrative of RBs past. And Cause 6 is Unjust Enrichment. From docket #100, Judge Kennelly (pg 1) "She has asserted claims for common-law fraud, fraudulent concealment, and unjust enrichment, as well as violations of the Illinois Consumer Fraud Act and the Illinois Physical Fitness Services Act" 2) You say "the class action is going to have a hard time getting many plaintiffs" when in fact the certification of the suit as a class action took care of this already. Is this intentional misinformation, or are you unaware how class action suits work? You need to opt OUT of a class action suit, not opt IN. From docket #100, Judge Kennelly (pg. 19) "all individuals who paid money to the defendants for youth volleyball instruction through the Sports Performance program provided by or through GLV Inc. in the State of Illinois between February 27, 2013 and January 10, 2018". So thousands of families will have to opt OUT. Doing nothing means they are plaintiffs. Sorry for all this "old and rehashed" information. Feel it is necessary to keep the facts straights. So I will correct my statement, good luck keeping thousands from opting out. It is my understanding that nearly all past and present athletes and parents were or are aware of the accusations. After all they are just accusations. I will wait to see the outcome of the class action.
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Post by itsallrelative on Feb 12, 2019 11:10:30 GMT -5
Couple of points: 1) You urge people to read entire threads so same old news is not repeated over and over (yet you either fail to do so yourself, or intentionally cherrypick misleading details) e.g. the obscure law you refer to is only part of the suit. specifically First and Second Cause of Action as outlined in the Complaint (pgs. 55-58). Causes 3-5 deal with Fraud and Fraudulent Concealment i.e. RB/CB/SPRI as an entity intentionally gave false narrative of RBs past. And Cause 6 is Unjust Enrichment. From docket #100, Judge Kennelly (pg 1) "She has asserted claims for common-law fraud, fraudulent concealment, and unjust enrichment, as well as violations of the Illinois Consumer Fraud Act and the Illinois Physical Fitness Services Act" 2) You say "the class action is going to have a hard time getting many plaintiffs" when in fact the certification of the suit as a class action took care of this already. Is this intentional misinformation, or are you unaware how class action suits work? You need to opt OUT of a class action suit, not opt IN. From docket #100, Judge Kennelly (pg. 19) "all individuals who paid money to the defendants for youth volleyball instruction through the Sports Performance program provided by or through GLV Inc. in the State of Illinois between February 27, 2013 and January 10, 2018". So thousands of families will have to opt OUT. Doing nothing means they are plaintiffs. Sorry for all this "old and rehashed" information. Feel it is necessary to keep the facts straights. So I will correct my statement, good luck keeping thousands from opting out. It is my understanding that nearly all past and present athletes and parents were or are aware of the accusations. After all they are just accusations. I will wait to see the outcome of the class action. "After all they are just accusations." Accusations that got him banned from multiple national organizations.
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Post by deohge on Feb 12, 2019 11:24:28 GMT -5
So I will correct my statement, good luck keeping thousands from opting out. It is my understanding that nearly all past and present athletes and parents were or are aware of the accusations. After all they are just accusations. I will wait to see the outcome of the class action. "After all they are just accusations." Accusations that got him banned from multiple national organizations. But he was never charged with any crime.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2019 11:45:18 GMT -5
"After all they are just accusations." Accusations that got him banned from multiple national organizations. But never charged with any crime. hmmm... again, difficult to know where to begin. Some sexual assault stats for you to learn: highlights (lowlights really) - roughly 5 out of 1000 rapist are convicted. The prevalence of false reporting is low — between 2% and 10%. www.nsvrc.org/statisticswww.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-systemhave you seen this? and/or listened to a RB victim and other victims of other predators speaking? If not, it is powerful. volleytalk.proboards.com/post/2021656/threadBut he hasn't been convicted, so who cares. He is fine to continue coaching. "nearly all past and present... were or are aware of the accusations..." Big part of the lawsuit (fraud) was that RB/CB/GVL mislead people as to the truth and depth of those "accusations". I would imagine that most people would want to hear both sides of the story. RB/CB version of accusations is very different than the victims version.
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Post by deohge on Feb 12, 2019 11:52:01 GMT -5
But never charged with any crime. hmmm... again, difficult to know where to begin. Some sexual assault stats for you to learn: highlights (lowlights really) - roughly 5 out of 1000 rapist are convicted. The prevalence of false reporting is low — between 2% and 10%. www.nsvrc.org/statisticswww.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-systemhave you seen this? and/or listened to a RB victim and other victims of other predators speaking? If not, it is powerful. volleytalk.proboards.com/post/2021656/threadBut he hasn't been convicted, so who cares. He is fine to continue coaching. "nearly all past and present... were or are aware of the accusations..." Big part of the lawsuit (fraud) was that RB/CB/GVL mislead people as to the truth and depth of those "accusations". I would imagine that most people would want to hear both sides of the story. RB/CB version of accusations is very different than the victims version. Yes, that is all great. Proving any of this is where we will wait and see the outcome of the case.
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Post by reader on Feb 12, 2019 12:40:44 GMT -5
What possible difference could the outcome of this case make in your opinion? If your standard is Crime then this won't affect it. If the bans from organizations across the sport don't move you then this won't. If you can't be bothered to listen and believe the victims then I really don't expect this to move you either. If your embrace of the SoL is where you make your stand then I guess the world will just have to sweep past you and leave you behind and isolated in your defense of RB. The changes in the power leagues indicate the way the winds are blowing, and it's been a while since they've blown any other direction.
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