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Post by Winbabywin on Apr 24, 2019 14:04:12 GMT -5
Nah, I have more important things to do; like mailing you an application to get on the stand. But I'm guessing you're content to shout out at the ref from the bleachers
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Post by Fight On! on Apr 24, 2019 14:04:47 GMT -5
You are incorrect. A ball contacting multiple points on the body successively (either rolling or bouncing) is a double, not a lift. From the DCR (NCAA rules are similar): 9.3.4: DOUBLE CONTACT: A player hits the ball twice in succession or the ball contacts various parts of his/her body in succession. This is the reason a first contact that rolls off the hands, or up the arms should never be called. Hate to be an echo chamber up in here, but if you think this is a double, you are INCORRECT. A ball rolling from shoulders off the end of the platform, is not 2 separate contacts, it is 1 long contact...which, by definition, is a lift. There are still a ton of coaches & players that think you can do whatever you want with a 1st ball; a lift is NEVER NEVER ever legal. To be a fault (the term lift is not in the rulebook AFAIK) the ball must come to a complete stop (i.e. be caught and thrown), as I understand it.
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Post by ned3vball on Apr 24, 2019 14:26:17 GMT -5
I get how technology is going to take over eventually, but it will be the game's loss that we won't see anymore pitchers like Tom Glavine, for one example. We won't lose good pitchers, we will lose the art of catchers "framing the pitch". Yes, that is another art of the sport that will be lost when a laser grid is officially calling the pitches in a few years. On the plus side of laser grids, at least we will see the high strike called more often as it should be.
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Post by justahick on Apr 24, 2019 14:36:08 GMT -5
Nah, I have more important things to do; like mailing you an application to get on the stand. But I'm guessing you're content to shout out at the ref from the bleachers No need for an application, I have reffed at higher levels than you have coached, reffed and played. Unless you are Chris Marlow (because he is the only player I know that has played at that level who has no clue what the rules are).
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Post by Fight On! on Apr 24, 2019 15:03:38 GMT -5
To be a fault (the term lift is not in the rulebook AFAIK) the ball must come to a complete stop (i.e. be caught and thrown), as I understand it. If you change directions on a throw tip it is a fault even though the ball never came to a stop. IMO that’s a lay interpretation of the rules, and not a true reflection of the rules as they are written: just like “she jumped so its its an illegal attack on the setter.” Ultimately referees have to decide what constitutes “catching” and “throwing”.
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Post by justahick on Apr 24, 2019 15:09:35 GMT -5
Prolonged contact refers to to a specific point of contact, not to the entire body part. In other words, if the ball stays at the same part of the arm too long then it is a catch. If the ball rolls on the arm, there is no prolonged contact with any one point and therefor cannot be a catch. Actually, if the ball rolls on the arm it IS prolonged contact and is a fault. Interpretations seem to conflict. NFHS (at least at one point) tried to say there was no such thing as a ball rolling up an arm and to consider it multiple contacts. This is an inherently stupid interpretation, but one which apparently exists for at least some versions of NFHS, so everybody appears to be right in at least some context. A rolling ball is multiple contacts under USAV, FIVB and NCAA - not sure about NFHS.
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Post by Fight On! on Apr 24, 2019 15:11:54 GMT -5
Actually, if the ball rolls on the arm it IS prolonged contact and is a fault. Interpretations seem to conflict. NFHS (at least at one point) tried to say there was no such thing as a ball rolling up an arm and to consider it multiple contacts. This is an inherently stupid interpretation, but one which apparently exists for at least some versions of NFHS, so everybody appears to be right in at least some context. A rolling ball is multiple contacts under USAV, FIVB and NCAA - not sure about NFHS. Can you provide a quote or citation to demonstrate this? I see no direct language in the NCAA or FIVB rulebooks to corroborate your interpretation.
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Post by justahick on Apr 24, 2019 15:15:06 GMT -5
To be a fault (the term lift is not in the rulebook AFAIK) the ball must come to a complete stop (i.e. be caught and thrown), as I understand it. If you change directions on a throw tip it is a fault even though the ball never came to a stop. Complete stop relative to the player making the playing action. A players initial contact with the ball sets the ball in motion (rebound). From that point, if the ball again changes direction it must have been a prolonged contact (catch) because a player cannot physically change the direction of a ball they are no longer contacting.
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Post by justahick on Apr 24, 2019 15:24:52 GMT -5
A rolling ball is multiple contacts under USAV, FIVB and NCAA - not sure about NFHS. Can you provide a quote or citation to demonstrate this? I see no direct language in the NCAA or FIVB rulebooks to corroborate your interpretation. I've been looking for something documenting this since this discussion started and haven't found it yet - when I do I'll post.
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Post by Fight On! on Apr 24, 2019 15:38:10 GMT -5
Can you provide a quote or citation to demonstrate this? I see no direct language in the NCAA or FIVB rulebooks to corroborate your interpretation. I've been looking for something documenting this since this discussion started and haven't found it yet - when I do I'll post. I am wondering if the rules are distinguishing between the ball hitting the player and the player hitting the ball. To me, if the player is standing there in coverage and the ball hits her and rolls some, that is different than a player make a quick motion subsequent to another motion to touch the ball a second time.
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Post by justahick on Apr 24, 2019 16:08:58 GMT -5
I've been looking for something documenting this since this discussion started and haven't found it yet - when I do I'll post. I am wondering if the rules are distinguishing between the ball hitting the player and the player hitting the ball. To me, if the player is standing there in coverage and the ball hits her and rolls some, that is different than a player make a quick motion subsequent to another motion to touch the ball a second time. You're right when you say there are a few different situations that can occur. (All situations first team contact) Ball rolls up the arm (or whatever) and is constantly in contact with the body and never changes direction - legal - classified as multiple contacts with one attempt to play the ball Ball rolls up the arm (or whatever) and is constantly in contact with the body and player moves in a way to cause a change in direction (think swinging the arm to fling the ball off it) - illegal - caught ball Ball rolls up the arm (or whatever), breaks contact and then touch the player again (player doesn't cause the second contact) - legal - multiple contacts, one attempt to play the ball Ball rolls up the arm (or whatever), breaks contact and then the player makes a move to touch the ball again - illegal - that is a double, (almost never happens and is called even less) Ball is played cleanly off the arms into the player's chest - legal - two contacts, one attempt to play the ball Ball is played cleanly off the players chest, then the player make a move with the arms to play the ball up - illegal - multiple contacts, multiple attempts to play the ball (fairly uncommon, should be called more often than it is) - similar play is in the USAV advanced ball handling training module
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Post by Fight On! on Apr 25, 2019 22:58:14 GMT -5
If the link works, check out those sets!
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Post by eazy on Apr 25, 2019 23:29:47 GMT -5
If the link works, check out those sets! FWIW to me that is interesting, yet hideous volleyball. It’s great to see how far the game has come; however, if I paid entrance fee to watch what looks like a highly advanced family picnic game I’d be furious.
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Post by ned3vball on Apr 26, 2019 6:33:45 GMT -5
I've been looking for something documenting this since this discussion started and haven't found it yet - when I do I'll post. I am wondering if the rules are distinguishing between the ball hitting the player and the player hitting the ball. To me, if the player is standing there in coverage and the ball hits her and rolls some, that is different than a player make a quick motion subsequent to another motion to touch the ball a second time. NCAA rule 14.1.2 Contacted Ball A player who contacts the ball, or is contacted by the ball other than during blocking action, is considered to have played the ball, and such action constitutes a team hit. If the ball is clearly touched only by a player’s hair, it is not considered a contact by that player. So at least NCAA rules specifically do not distinguish. (the hair part surprised me, I thought hair was in play).
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Post by ned3vball on Apr 26, 2019 6:43:33 GMT -5
I am wondering if the rules are distinguishing between the ball hitting the player and the player hitting the ball. To me, if the player is standing there in coverage and the ball hits her and rolls some, that is different than a player make a quick motion subsequent to another motion to touch the ball a second time. You're right when you say there are a few different situations that can occur. (All situations first team contact) Ball rolls up the arm (or whatever) and is constantly in contact with the body and never changes direction - legal - classified as multiple contacts with one attempt to play the ball Ball rolls up the arm (or whatever) and is constantly in contact with the body and player moves in a way to cause a change in direction (think swinging the arm to fling the ball off it) - illegal - caught ball Ball rolls up the arm (or whatever), breaks contact and then touch the player again (player doesn't cause the second contact) - legal - multiple contacts, one attempt to play the ball Ball rolls up the arm (or whatever), breaks contact and then the player makes a move to touch the ball again - illegal - that is a double, (almost never happens and is called even less) Ball is played cleanly off the arms into the player's chest - legal - two contacts, one attempt to play the ball Ball is played cleanly off the players chest, then the player make a move with the arms to play the ball up - illegal - multiple contacts, multiple attempts to play the ball (fairly uncommon, should be called more often than it is) - similar play is in the USAV advanced ball handling training module NCAA rule 14.2.2 Caught or Thrown Ball The ball must be hit cleanly and not caught or thrown. Prolonged contact with the ball is a fault. The ball can rebound in any direction. 14.2.3 Successive Contacts 14.2.3.1 During blocking or during the team’s first hit, successive contacts with various parts of the player’s body are permitted in a single attempt to play the ball. Prolonged contact is a fault in these actions. "ball rolls up the arm" is prolonged contact, and it is a fault even on first hit. So all four of the above rolls up examples are illegal contacts in NCAA.
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