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Post by VB48 on May 8, 2019 16:17:48 GMT -5
Many in this thread seem to be conflating 'Club' with 'Team'. The rule states that once a player participates in a BJNC qualifying event, they are frozen to that club for the rest of the season. They can play in subsequent BJNC qualifying events with other teams in that same club, but cannot play or be rostered at a BJNC qualifying event for a team in another club.
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Post by bealzabubba on May 8, 2019 17:28:53 GMT -5
As to my post directly before yours, you are correct, I was erroneously using team and club interchangeably. As to the initial eval of the rules above that, I was not. The issue is switching clubs, not teams within clubs. d1psetter's experience above is illuminating.
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Post by G$ on May 10, 2019 13:18:34 GMT -5
A few players from my son's unqualified club team made attempts to transfer to different clubs this week. These transfers not allowed by SCVA. It was immaterial the reason why the transfer was "justified"....the rule is very cut and dried - play in a qualifier, stay at that club.
When the player asked to transfer teams within the club, he received the answer - "That roster is full and has already been submitted". Essentially the Club Director can choose to do whatever he wants with the player. I find it odd - (SCVA gives this control) the Club Directors essentially can control a teenager's volleyball career, as if they were professional already! A player can choose to only two options - 1) Play on whatever team the Club Director makes available (same team), or 2) Sit out the Spring.
Even a player moving 75 miles within SCVA in February - a club coach told me this player was also "glued" to his original club, despite having to drive 100 minutes each way for practice.
Good News - the rule is the rule, with no exceptions.
Bad News - there is no way a solid player who desires to play high level will join a TEAM (who cares about the club when there truly is no good way to transfer teams within a club anyway) at risk of qualifying. That player will need to roster up on a very deep team, and hope they can earn respectable playing time.
I believe the old rule was NOT BROKEN. This new rule is very restricting, and long term will cause fewer, though larger and deeper teams.
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Post by d1psetter on May 10, 2019 14:19:11 GMT -5
So even if both club directors agree to the release of a player, the SCVA will not approve the transfer?
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Post by G$ on May 10, 2019 14:31:27 GMT -5
That is my belief. Somehow USAV was getting involved too, for what it’s worth. Unsure on who has jurisdiction.
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Post by bealzabubba on May 10, 2019 14:44:15 GMT -5
I agree with G$ 's opinion on the long term effect, generally, and (for us) it will make our decision next fall far more considered (though, due to geographic constraints, it likely won't change it). But... doesn't this kinda help on the "grow the game" front, too? Meaning the boys who "discover" v-ball in HS spring season now have some opportunities that would likely be taken by a club jumper. That's good, right? The other part may be us: just how peeved would you be if a club jumper took your son's PT, after you paid much higher fees and he put in all that work in the fall to earn the bid? I *think* I'd be OK with that - the whole point is to play at the highest level and win - but I can definitely see some parents and boys getting super pissed off. That may be the bases of SCVA's decision, though there should absolutely be exceptions and not a bright line rule (moving, club falls apart, etc.)
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Post by G$ on May 10, 2019 15:48:14 GMT -5
Bealzabubba,
Funny you see it that way.... as I see it exactly contrary. (was refreshed to see an alternate view....I am too close to this I believe) I was thinking my son and others would be the 15th-17th players rostered on XYZ 18-1, etc....
I was initially thinking it would shrink the game, as I contend at least at the beginning of the year, the solid players (not the franchise players) will likley join more established rosters with established "franchise" players. Even if there are 6 Pins on the roster, I contend they will be the 7th trying to scrap for a spot.
The loser in this event is the smaller clubs - can they field a squad when arguably these teams are smaller and dependent on these "solid" players who are built around?
Finally, I was thinking Spring players could never contribute to these high level qualified teams anyway. Even with a stud athletic convert discovering VB in high school, can he really contribute at the Open or USA level immediately? Perhaps USA, but certainly not OPEN.
Appreciate the alternate view.
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Post by bealzabubba on May 10, 2019 18:08:04 GMT -5
I'm not saying I'm right - just that it was a thought / perspective on why they did this and that it might make some sense.
Also, our different take may be based upon age / experience / expectations of our kids - my son plays 15's, so I view matters through a frosh/soph perspective, not a jr/sr one - and I think those are different. I may 3 more years of my son playing; you may have 0.
Another point is our club is relatively big and stable - fielding one team in every age group possible, with mixed age 2's for a couple. We've done OK, but we're not Balboa, either in size or accomplishment.
When I talked to our director about moving clubs last summer (unhappy with how last year went), he told me the biggest influx of boys at our club, historically, is after their fr/so year.
This year, our spring tryouts were absolutely nuts - 150+ boys, with maybe 10+ from non-qualified teams (all levels), that either I or my son recognized (so, possibly more), trying to hook on to a qualified team (we have 2 open, 2 usa). That volume was ... unexpected.
We ended up forming two full new teams (maybe 3, still up in the air), and had at least 3 boys added to qualified teams. I'm guessing here - that's ~36 boys total that get a chance to play. (why not more? not enough coaches our courts.)
Of the three who were added to Q'd teams: one will contribute, immediately. Didn't play club in the fall due to other commitments, but has before (USA, too, so it doesn't contradict your point). The other two (my sons team, as it happens) will likely only be role players, but they will hopefully stay at the club / with the team next fall.
Part of my perspective is seeing those ~100 other boys, looking for an opportunity to play, and most not getting it.
Maybe they hook up with another club; maybe some try again in the fall (where they will be even more behind); maybe they don't, and just stick to HS. I'd rather see those kids in club, sooner rather than later, but, again, I'm keeping an eye on the future.
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Post by Scipio Aemilianus on May 10, 2019 19:24:56 GMT -5
When did this fall/spring season rosters whole thing happen? It used to be tryouts in the fall and that was your team thru July. There was no ‘post-high school season tryout’. Tryouts for what.. 8 weeks max??
I get wanting to play in Open but this is stupid in my opinion. What ever happened to committing to a team and finishing a season even if you don’t win every match? Kids (and their parents) club-hop too much already every summer, now they change clubs AGAIN just to join a team for less than 2 months? Call me old fashion but this is ridiculous.
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Post by G$ on May 11, 2019 8:39:04 GMT -5
wow... 150 new kids.... wow.... our club got 4 at our age division. Our team was in need, we have 10 total players now. And our club has performed very well historically at the Open level. Just not enough bodies in the area I suppose at the age level.
Suhdude, unsure of how it was *before* 2-3 years ago. However, pretty common knowledge in recent memory about switching is "unqualified". Our team benefitted from this several times, as a solid player from an unqualified team would join a 15-18 squad after high school.
This year, after all this crap, the 3 players on our team simply became worn out, and are resigned to return to a club. The team wont be traveling to compete in the CLUB division however, as most families don't want to spend the money for anything less than USA. I am not sure how I feel about that.
In our case, that is 3 players who would have player at nationals had the old rule been in place. On the flip side, the team WILL continue to compete for the next 7-8 weeks, finishing in Anaheim before nationals.
If the 3 players left, would there be enough for a team? Maybe not. Perhaps more players are playing in SCVA.
I would be curious if any of those 10+ mentioned above are allowed to make the switch. I doubt it, but would be very interested.
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Post by socal3 on May 11, 2019 9:20:03 GMT -5
USAV regions have different rules for certain aspects of club volleyball including timing of tryouts, tournament play (this year SCVA required printed rosters and player IDs), etc. which is understandable, but for SCVA to restrict players from moving to a new club when a player’s previous club team is not qualified while other regions are not imposing the same restriction, creates a significant rule advantage for regions outside of SCVA.
Personally not a fan of intra-season transfers primarily because of the negative impact to the team the transferring player vacates. That being said, if the rule is clear prior to tryouts that players have the freedom to transfer clubs provided their team did not qualify, caveat emptor to players and parents on commitment date.
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VBSH 2
Banned
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Posts: 890
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Post by VBSH 2 on May 11, 2019 9:32:39 GMT -5
When did this fall/spring season rosters whole thing happen? It used to be tryouts in the fall and that was your team thru July. There was no ‘post-high school season tryout’. Tryouts for what.. 8 weeks max?? I get wanting to play in Open but this is stupid in my opinion. What ever happened to committing to a team and finishing a season even if you don’t win every match? Kids (and their parents) club-hop too much already every summer, now they change clubs AGAIN just to join a team for less than 2 months? Call me old fashion but this is ridiculous. Well, a couple of things about spring tryouts and joining in spring: A lot of kids starting playing in High school and have no idea about club volleyball. At our high school, there are about 3 or 4 freshman that are going to play club for the very 1st time because of high school volleyball. From personal experience, my son got jerked around by his HS baseball coaches during his soph year, and I asked to try volleyball and spring was perfect for him, short season and he wasn't sure he wanted to play. He liked the sport and the next season he played on an 18s team. We were decent ( we had 1 D1 player) , but mostly 18s that had been together for most of HS (except my son who just joined). In the spring, our top player decided not to play and there were several that decided that after HS season, it was over for them. So, at spring tryouts, we only had 2 players left. So, he and the other kid had no choice but to leave and they went to another club. What would happen now to those 2 kids now? My son went to Bones to play with their 17/18s team. Not open, but they were pretty decent. Of course, he went back to Bones in the fall (because we were loyal) and at tryouts, all the boys thought it was the best tryout ever and we would have been a top 5 team. Then, Sunday I get a call from the director telling me I need to look for another team. The director's son and the middle hitter were switching clubs. So, back to the drawing board and found out only 1 team had tryouts on that Sunday. Off to another club, Rise. He got bronze at nationals. So, 3 clubs in 9 months, were we club hopping? I guess. Were we loyal to our club? I guess. sometimes you don't have a choice not to club hop.
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Post by Scipio Aemilianus on May 11, 2019 11:04:06 GMT -5
Parents that “don’t want to spend the money to play in anything less than USA” are in it for the wrong reasons and are setting a pretty bad example for their kids. Boys club volleyball used to be about making friends, being a team player, fighting thru tough times to enjoy the good times, and having fun playing a sport with your buddies.
You wanna play club volleyball? Great! The season goes from September-July and you gotta go to all the tournaments on the teams schedule. BJNC is on the schedule and you should go, even if you didn’t qualify for a higher division. It’s sad honestly that families don’t think like that nowadays.
Back in the day, kids who just started club for first time could still join teams. That hasn’t changed. But this whole changing clubs based on which team qualified didn’t exist. And there wasn’t a USA division to make average teams feel great. There was no shame in playing in club. Open and Club are the exact same thing, just playing against different teams. I’d rather be fighting to make the Gold bracket on Day 3 in Club then to be 1-8 after Day 3 in Open. I put a lot of blame on the parents and these new rules that allows you to leave your team midseason to join a “better” team.
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Post by bealzabubba on May 13, 2019 10:59:09 GMT -5
There are extenuating circumstances for many, Scipio Aemilianus , and I think you're misreading what's happening: the new rule prevents boys from moving mid-season, apparently in all situations, without consideration of circumstances. The new, bright line rule, is bad, the more I think about it. Here's two circumstances where club jumping absolutely should be permitted, and apparently no longer are: 1. Club cratered, as VBSH 2 2 described? Those kids are screwed. 2. The team decides not to go and play club, b/c the parents don't want to spend the money for "only" club or decided that their other plans for the summer are more important? Those kids are screwed out of an opportunity, too. This was my kid last year; and while he didn't try to club jump (mainly, b/c I didn't know you could), I regret that - my son lost an opportunity for a great experience, and I'm still pissed about it - at the other parents.
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Post by Scipio Aemilianus on May 13, 2019 12:46:51 GMT -5
There are definitely crazy things that happen and certain circumstances that occur I get that. Maybe their can be a formal appeal process and a special waiver based on certain circumstances. Obviously if a kids family moves from south Orange County to shorty LA, they should be able to switch clubs I get that. But stuff like that is super rare.
1. If kids and their parents were signing up and paying for an entire season, I bet some of those kids would still be playing for the last 2-3 months. Most parents wouldn’t allow their kids to just quit cause they feel like it if they still had to pay the bills for the spring season (including Nationals). And maybe people would think about joining better, more stable clubs that have multiple teams per age group. The remaining two or three kids could be pulled up/down to the clubs other team. So many new clubs are starting then folding because people want to be on a “1s team”. Again back in the day, kids and parents weren’t ashamed of being on a really good clubs 2s team. A SCVC 2s or a Balboa 3s team would be much better than a decent amount of clubs 1s team. Now kids and their parents are ashamed of playin on a 2s team.
2. Again, every club can decide to go to Nationals before fall tryouts. Before accepting a spot on a team, each club should give their tournament schedule to everyone. Nationals is just like every other tournament. You know the dates, the location, and the cost before the fall season even starts. The only thing that is unknown is if you’re in the AM or PM wave. If you sign up for a club going to Nationals, each person has to agree to pay for that tournament just like every other tournament. There should be no option of “My son is playing in the PM wave so I’m not going to pay what I agreed to pay”. That’s what contracts are for. Parents shouldn’t get to decide that “my son’s coaches and teammates aren’t good enough so I’m going to quit and not abide by the contract I signed”.
I think those type of requirements would help solve a majority of the problems. Bad parents have too much power to ruin seasons for clubs and other families. My biggest pet peeve is the whole “we don’t want to pay for club but we will pay for USA or Open”. That is BS.
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