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Post by 808 State on Apr 25, 2019 15:06:00 GMT -5
808State......For the children”? You must be brain dead. Charlie have kids of his own....one has special needs. If you ever saw how much he love his kids, you would never make such idiotic statement. Sorry I was speaking in general term. Are we not all somebody’s child?
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Post by Barefoot In Kailua on Apr 25, 2019 15:08:52 GMT -5
Innocent until proven guilty is fine But to totally discredit the victim in this case is not fair. We should take every claim seriously. Does that mean firing everyone, suspending everyone etc that has a claim made against them? No. But should we say "omg this person is probably lying blah blah blah" is NOT needed. Look at all the sexual misconduct that has gone in the sports world lately. If we discredit this, we are no better than the accussed I don't think anybody is saying anything to discredit the person who brought the charge up or that allegations are being investigated. This investigation has been going on prior to the start of the 2019 season. Let the investigation play out- it has nothing to do with the NCAA Men's Volleyball Championship. The problem is the reporter's intent to bring this up now, and hang this over the NCAA Tourney just to bring more attention to himself.
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Post by WahineFan44 on Apr 25, 2019 15:11:14 GMT -5
Innocent until proven guilty is fine But to totally discredit the victim in this case is not fair. We should take every claim seriously. Does that mean firing everyone, suspending everyone etc that has a claim made against them? No. But should we say "omg this person is probably lying blah blah blah" is NOT needed. Look at all the sexual misconduct that has gone in the sports world lately. If we discredit this, we are no better than the accussed I don't think anybody is saying anything to discredit the person who brought the charge up or that allegations are being investigated. This investigation has been going on prior to the start of the 2019 season. Let the investigation play out- it has nothing to do with the NCAA Men's Volleyball Championship. The problem is the reporter's intent to bring this up now, and hang this over the NCAA Tourney just to bring more attention to himself. Quite a few posters seem to be DEFENDING wade and saying the accusser is wrong, based on their post. I agree, the article was not needed. It was only to bring publicity to himself, and to stir the pot. But regardless it happened, and the posters defending wade just to defend him because hes our coach are wrong.
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Post by noblesol on Apr 25, 2019 15:20:02 GMT -5
Innocent until proven guilty is fine But to totally discredit the victim in this case is not fair. We should take every claim seriously. Does that mean firing everyone, suspending everyone etc that has a claim made against them? No. But should we say "omg this person is probably lying blah blah blah" is NOT needed. Look at all the sexual misconduct that has gone in the sports world lately. If we discredit this, we are no better than the accussed No one has discredited 'the victim' in this thread. No one has failed to take this seriously. But, again, your post is another demonstration of the damage being done by the 'SafeSport' procedures. For it's not possible for anyone to know who the 'victim' is here. You presume it's the person making the allegation, but why? What evidence is there of misconduct? You don't know. What is the credibility of the accuser? You don't know. What is the credibility of the charge? You don't know. What is the credibility of the investigation? You aren't read in, you can't know. All you know is there is suspension pending investigation, so you default to assuming the worst and believe there is a victim, the accused can't be trusted (aka doesn't deserve presumption of innocence), and their denial and lack of public comment and defense means they should be 'discredited' and the accuser should be provided the presumption of infallible credibility and trust. Because, you know, it's a 'serious' charge. So, your 'fine' with presumption of innocence, but we should 'be better than the accused' (because I guess you've presumed them guilty) and lets punish them first by indefinite suspension, public shaming, and making them prove their innocence at the hands of a secretly conducted investigation which publicly accuses them. Again, WOW.
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Post by brooselee on Apr 25, 2019 15:21:05 GMT -5
I don't think anybody is saying anything to discredit the person who brought the charge up or that allegations are being investigated. This investigation has been going on prior to the start of the 2019 season. Let the investigation play out- it has nothing to do with the NCAA Men's Volleyball Championship. The problem is the reporter's intent to bring this up now, and hang this over the NCAA Tourney just to bring more attention to himself. Quite a few posters seem to be DEFENDING wade and saying the accusser is wrong, based on their post. I agree, the article was not needed. It was only to bring publicity to himself, and to stir the pot. But regardless it happened, and the posters defending wade just to defend him because hes our coach are wrong. We are defending Wade because he is innocent until proven guilty. I’m not sure why that is hard to understand. Sure...you can go ahead and take that charge seriously but you have to be fair to Wade too. You seems to care about the “victim” but you sounds like you don’t care about Wade’s reputation being dragged thru the mud with no convincing evidence. Your assumption that we back Wade because he is our coach....instead of believing in his innocence until proven.... makes you look like you are one sided in your thinking. Best case scenario was not not post this until misconduct is found. Right now it’s only allegation.
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Post by Wolfgang on Apr 25, 2019 15:21:54 GMT -5
I'm not like holiday who defends his party and its members without shame, no matter what the evidence says.
If Wade did something wrong, I want him to pay -- fired, criminal prosecution, the works. If he didn't do anything wrong, Wade should continue to represent Hawaii for as long as he wants.
Having said that, there is NO evidence on this investigation that we know of. Not yet.
So, currently, I'm not defending Wade. Nor am I not not defending him. (double negative) There's really nothing I can say at this point because there's no evidence to talk about.
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Post by WahineFan44 on Apr 25, 2019 15:25:46 GMT -5
Innocent until proven guilty is fine But to totally discredit the victim in this case is not fair. We should take every claim seriously. Does that mean firing everyone, suspending everyone etc that has a claim made against them? No. But should we say "omg this person is probably lying blah blah blah" is NOT needed. Look at all the sexual misconduct that has gone in the sports world lately. If we discredit this, we are no better than the accussed No one has discredited 'the victim' in this thread. No one has failed to take this seriously. But, again, your post is another demonstration of the damage being done by the 'SafeSport' procedures. For it's not possible for anyone to know who the 'victim' is here. You presume it's the person making the allegation, but why? What evidence is there of misconduct? You don't know. What is the credibility of the accuser? You don't know. What is the credibility of the charge? You don't know. What is the credibility of the investigation? You aren't read in, you can't know. All you know is there is suspension pending investigation, so you default to assuming the worst and believe there is a victim, the accused can't be trusted (aka doesn't deserve presumption of innocence), and their denial and lack of public comment and defense means they should be 'discredited' and the accuser should be provided the presumption of infallible credibility and trust. Because, you know, it's a 'serious' charge. So, your 'fine' with presumption of innocence, but we should 'be better than the accused' (because I guess you've presumed them guilty) and lets punish them first by indefinite suspension, public shaming, and making them prove their innocence at the hands of a secretly conducted investigation which publicly accuses them. Again, WOW.
Where have I said any of that. I clearly said I agree with innocent until proven guilty. But at the same time, there are people defending wade in here, to the point where they look like they are not taking this seriously at all. THAT is my problem. My problem is these Hawaii posters (not all some) would not be doing this if it was a UCSB coach, or a rival coach etc. Its wade and thats why their so adament. I have never once claimed that wade is guilty. I have never once claimed he should be suspended. What I did claim is that as Hawaii fans, we should be taking these claims seriously, regardless if it was a simple groping, comments made, or something more serious being claimed. Taking it seriously does not mean I automatically assume one is guilty, it means we should investigate throughouly and take action if needed.
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Post by WahineFan44 on Apr 25, 2019 15:27:51 GMT -5
Quite a few posters seem to be DEFENDING wade and saying the accusser is wrong, based on their post. I agree, the article was not needed. It was only to bring publicity to himself, and to stir the pot. But regardless it happened, and the posters defending wade just to defend him because hes our coach are wrong. We are defending Wade because he is innocent until proven guilty. I’m not sure why that is hard to understand. Sure...you can go ahead and take that charge seriously but you have to be fair to Wade too. You seems to care about the “victim” but you sounds like you don’t care about Wade’s reputation being dragged thru the mud with no convincing evidence. Your assumption that we back Wade because he is our coach....instead of believing in his innocence until proven.... makes you look like you are one sided in your thinking. Best case scenario was not not post this until misconduct is found. Right now it’s only allegation. Its laughable that you think people don't realize you are defending wade because he is Hawaii coach. Lets not fool anyone right now.
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Post by brooselee on Apr 25, 2019 15:31:44 GMT -5
We are defending Wade because he is innocent until proven guilty. I’m not sure why that is hard to understand. Sure...you can go ahead and take that charge seriously but you have to be fair to Wade too. You seems to care about the “victim” but you sounds like you don’t care about Wade’s reputation being dragged thru the mud with no convincing evidence. Your assumption that we back Wade because he is our coach....instead of believing in his innocence until proven.... makes you look like you are one sided in your thinking. Best case scenario was not not post this until misconduct is found. Right now it’s only allegation. Its laughable that you think people don't realize you are defending wade because he is Hawaii coach. Lets not fool anyone right now. Only to you. I have not said anything about him being innocent because he coached for UH. You obviously have hatred for him to think that.
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Post by WahineFan44 on Apr 25, 2019 15:40:32 GMT -5
Its laughable that you think people don't realize you are defending wade because he is Hawaii coach. Lets not fool anyone right now. Only to you. I have not said anything about him being innocent because he coached for UH. You obviously have hatred for him to think that. Ahhhh Yes. Youve figuired me out. I HAAAATE wade. You should really come up with better arguments if you're going to post
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Post by volleyguy on Apr 25, 2019 15:42:42 GMT -5
Of course the SafeSport model is not perfect--no existing model is--and the USOC and USA Gynnastics were atrociously negligent. There is no excuse for that. But that has very little to do with the process being used here. The alternative you seem to be suggesting is secrecy, which is exactly the root of the original problem. Then we agree that the 'SafeSport' model is flawed. Your suggestion is that it solves the root problem of 'secrecy'. You make no substantive defense for the rights of the accused. So, the suggestion is that it's better to let the accused twist in the wind and be publicly harassed and humiliated, denied the ability to associate with USOC and activities under its jurisdiction, severely hampered in their ability to make a public defense, expending their time and resources on lawyers and answering to probably multiple investigations, reporters, and concerned employers, parents, students, family, etc., all pending 'SafeSport' investigating decades old anonymous charges over a period that can run in excess of seven months up to what, possibly years? Your suggesting that this is acceptable, I can't agree with. I don't agree with the premise that the main root cause of the USOC problem were investigations that respected the rights of the accused. The root cause of the problem was lack of proper oversight by USOC management, lack of proper reporting procedures and outreach to athletes, lack of a proper internal investigative ability and oversight of those investigations, and a general disregard for the well being of young athletes and proper concern for the behavior and oversight of employees. A lot of 'root' causes, and to point to 'secrecy' that protected the rights of the accused as THE problem issue is dangerously shortsighted at best. Our system of justice in this country operates on a presumption of innocence. When we allow that to be weakened, then we are participating in something that is unacceptably flawed and an attack on human rights.
SafeSport attempts to address the issues that you described: outreach, proper reporting procedures, and oversight. My point that secrecy was at the root of the problems relates to the fact that there was no centralized method or procedure to address complaints, which allowed concerns to go unaddressed, prevented awareness that there were concerns/issues and permitted the situation to continue far longer than it ever should have. I have already state that the length of time it is taking to complete an investigation is far too long. But your argument that because the system isn't perfect it is unfair or wrong and a threat to the world as we know it is a straw man argument.
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Post by volleyguy on Apr 25, 2019 16:05:28 GMT -5
And before ANY Hawaii posters attack me. Im not on either side here. I just think we need to take this seriously. More seriously than some of you are taking it. This is not me saying Wade is guilty or innocent. Its me saying the university, or whoever, should do a throurough investigation till they get to the bottom of it. I think this is the right approach. Long Beach appears to have reviewed the situation with Touzinsky and decided that they were okay with him remaining a coach. Then the article and ensuing publicity hit, and they probably got a little weak-kneed and decided that they wouldn't stand up for him. I think that's a little bit lame. I do think the Hawai'i admin should do an expeditious review and either put their support behind his remaining as coach through the Tournament and/or pending the results of the investigation or ask him to step aside for the good of the team/University. I would be perfectly fine with the first option if the University decided it was warranted. The primary problem is not SafeSport or the fact that the existence of a complaint is made public. The problem is mainly people's emotional and uninformed reactions to that information.
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Post by WahineFan44 on Apr 25, 2019 16:08:00 GMT -5
And before ANY Hawaii posters attack me. Im not on either side here. I just think we need to take this seriously. More seriously than some of you are taking it. This is not me saying Wade is guilty or innocent. Its me saying the university, or whoever, should do a throurough investigation till they get to the bottom of it. I think this is the right approach. Long Beach appears to have reviewed the situation with Touzinsky and decided that they were okay with him remaining a coach. Then the article and ensuing publicity hit, and they probably got a little weak-kneed and decided that they wouldn't stand up for him. I think the Hawai'i admin should do an expeditious review and either support his remaining as coach through the Tournament and/or pending the results of the investigation or ask him to step aside for the good of the team/University. I would be perfectly fine with the first option if the University decided it was warranted. The primary problem is not SafeSport or the fact that the existence of a complaint is made public. The problem is mainly people's emotional and uninformed reactions to that information. Agreed. People are letting their emotions, and love for our team tae the best of them. If the unversity decides to keep wade, based on evidence, I will support that, and vice versa. I just want something to be done (if it has than by all means). I still think the article was nothing more than a publicity stunt for the author to get attention etc, and was uneeded, but the fact is the article was published. There is nothing we can do as of now.
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Post by volleyguy on Apr 25, 2019 16:10:33 GMT -5
I think this is the right approach. Long Beach appears to have reviewed the situation with Touzinsky and decided that they were okay with him remaining a coach. Then the article and ensuing publicity hit, and they probably got a little weak-kneed and decided that they wouldn't stand up for him. I think the Hawai'i admin should do an expeditious review and either support his remaining as coach through the Tournament and/or pending the results of the investigation or ask him to step aside for the good of the team/University. I would be perfectly fine with the first option if the University decided it was warranted. The primary problem is not SafeSport or the fact that the existence of a complaint is made public. The problem is mainly people's emotional and uninformed reactions to that information. Agreed. People are letting their emotions, and love for our team tae the best of them. If the unversity decides to keep wade, based on evidence, I will support that, and vice versa. I just want something to be done (if it has than by all means). I still think the article was nothing more than a publicity stunt for the author to get attention etc, and was uneeded, but the fact is the article was published. There is nothing we can do as of now. I don't think it was a publicity stunt. It's true and it's a very timely and important topic. It did get more attention that it might have otherwise because of the timing, but whether that was intentional or not doesn't change the fact that it is a serious topic.
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Post by WahineFan44 on Apr 25, 2019 16:12:16 GMT -5
Agreed. People are letting their emotions, and love for our team tae the best of them. If the unversity decides to keep wade, based on evidence, I will support that, and vice versa. I just want something to be done (if it has than by all means). I still think the article was nothing more than a publicity stunt for the author to get attention etc, and was uneeded, but the fact is the article was published. There is nothing we can do as of now. I don't think it was a publicity stunt. It's true and it's a very timely and important topic. It did get more attention that it might have otherwise because of the timing, but whether that was intentional or not doesn't change the fact that it is a serious topic. I would have been fine if it was posted in the middle of the season, begining, end etc. But right before the NCAA? It seems like it was purposefully done with timing. Thats just me though. I agree, the topic is a serious one, and needs to be addressed, I just feel like the author wasn't noble in his intentions on posting it 100 percent. But that may be me making assumptions as well.
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