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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2020 14:59:29 GMT -5
As I said in another thread, a part of the problem with Barnes' passing is that she was trying to shield Haggerty to varying degrees depending on Haggerty's mood and success, and that caused confusion in SR. The seam between them was a target for other teams. I think her responsibilities will be greater but also a lot simpler next year - and she will have more reps. I think she will do fine. Clark was good though at the end. She will be a miss. Given how good Haggerty was in 2018 I'm not sure that's the issue. Also, bear in mind Barnes handled far more balls than Haggerty. Barnes passed more than anyone on the team. Actually, that supports badgerbreath's overall point. Haggerty was a disaster passing at the start of the year. Her passing was, at least in part, what caused so much trouble for Wisconsin in the nonconference in rotation 6. Haggerty may have passed well in 2018, but not in 2019. For whatever reason that was, I don't know. But your stats confirm that she was not a good passer in 2019. Barnes did have to cover for her a lot. Stepped in front of her often. As a result of that, and in badgerbreath's point about teams attacking that seam, she would have passed more. But, not necessarily because of her own shortcomings.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2020 15:06:48 GMT -5
Given how good Haggerty was in 2018 I'm not sure that's the issue. Also, bear in mind Barnes handled far more balls than Haggerty. Barnes passed more than anyone on the team. Actually, that supports badgerbreath's overall point. Haggerty was a disaster passing at the start of the year. Her passing was, at least in part, what caused so much trouble for Wisconsin in the nonconference in rotation 6. Haggerty may have passed well in 2018, but not in 2019. For whatever reason that was, I don't know. But your stats confirm that she was not a good passer in 2019. Barnes did have to cover for her a lot. Stepped in front of her often. As a result of that, and in badgerbreath's point about teams attacking that seam, she would have passed more. But, not necessarily because of her own shortcomings. You're missing my point. Haggerty is still going to be playing next year. So is Barnes. The players that will be missing are the reason that Wisconsin's SR didn't break down entirely. If Barnes can't pass next to Haggerty then the issue is bigger than I initially stated.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2020 15:15:40 GMT -5
Oh, it is a concern at the moment. I think they have the players to be good there, though. Or, good enough. They are going to miss Clark and Dodge, no doubt about that. But, I am not writing off the group of Barnes, MacDonald, Haggerty, Loberg, etc. at this point. I think Barnes will be fine at libero. Haggerty will probably pass better, and has, even the season she was working back from back surgery. But, you're right. They lost some key pieces to their back row. Hopefully they have players on hand to deal with it.
Also curious, what were Barnes' passing numbers in 2017 and 2018 with Minnesota? Did her 2019 numbers slide from her time at Minnesota?
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Post by Wiswell on Jan 3, 2020 15:34:32 GMT -5
So bizarre. They all had matches where they were not passing well. But, I never once looked at any of them and felt that they weren't good passers. I rarely had any complaints about Barnes' passing, apart from the occasional rough match that they all had. The stats don't seem to reflect the observation test at all. With all due respect, that just underlines how little most fans know about passing metrics in volleyball. And that isn't a slight - the commentary teams frequently say a team is passing well when they aren't or highlight one bad pass when a player is having a great match. Rest assured the coding on volleymetrics is done by a team of professionals (some of whom played at top programs) and used by coaches at the highest level. That's not to say it's perfect - but it's certainly better than any one person's observational skills when they are watching a match live and infinitely more reliable than that the memory of those events. It's also worth noting it isn't just a spreadsheet. I can pull up any match and watch every pass by any player, to actually see the numbers in action. I am pretty confident that KPS relies heavily on Gary White and also Annemarie Hickey to take that data and use it for decisionmaking. I also think some of the eye test is that fans aren't realizing how good the setting is in that a less than good pass turns into a seamless set. We are going on year 7 of that phenomenon.
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Post by badgerbreath on Jan 3, 2020 15:35:44 GMT -5
My sense is that the coaching staff decided early on that they were going to make full use of the backrow talent they had to lighten the loads on Haggerty and Loberg. They wanted to focus those players on expanding their range offensively, increasing their confidence, and maybe hoping to protect them physically given the injuries the previous year. Haggerty and Loberg had a hard time dealing with it initially. It took a long while to shake out the balance in the back. Their passing got a lot worse because of that, and probably the lack of reps. I think one of Haggerty and Loberg will probably be able to step up significantly.
One thing the season averages don't tell you is how the passing changed during the season. With some ups and downs (likes OSU) it got much better and more stable as time went on. Hilley also got better this year at turning 1 option passes into 2 option balls.
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Post by badgerbreath on Jan 3, 2020 15:40:02 GMT -5
With all due respect, that just underlines how little most fans know about passing metrics in volleyball. And that isn't a slight - the commentary teams frequently say a team is passing well when they aren't or highlight one bad pass when a player is having a great match. Rest assured the coding on volleymetrics is done by a team of professionals (some of whom played at top programs) and used by coaches at the highest level. That's not to say it's perfect - but it's certainly better than any one person's observational skills when they are watching a match live and infinitely more reliable than that the memory of those events. It's also worth noting it isn't just a spreadsheet. I can pull up any match and watch every pass by any player, to actually see the numbers in action. I am pretty confident that KPS relies heavily on Gary White and also Annemarie Hickey to take that data and use it for decisionmaking. I also think some of the eye test is that fans aren't realizing how good the setting is in that a less than good pass turns into a seamless set. We are going on year 7 of that phenomenon. I think Hilley was much better at that this year than in her previous two, especially the first when she was often hyper cautious. She made a huge step up. I think that is one reason they were able to get away with essentially a 2 passer system a lot of the year.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2020 19:24:26 GMT -5
Oh, it is a concern at the moment. I think they have the players to be good there, though. Or, good enough. They are going to miss Clark and Dodge, no doubt about that. But, I am not writing off the group of Barnes, MacDonald, Haggerty, Loberg, etc. at this point. I think Barnes will be fine at libero. Haggerty will probably pass better, and has, even the season she was working back from back surgery. But, you're right. They lost some key pieces to their back row. Hopefully they have players on hand to deal with it. Also curious, what were Barnes' passing numbers in 2017 and 2018 with Minnesota? Did her 2019 numbers slide from her time at Minnesota? This was a good question. Turns out in 2017 Barnes passed a 2.26 and in 2018 a 2.22. Either would be sufficient next year. It should be noted that she was handling fewer balls in both cases but last year no one else around her passed especially well, so she might be able to shoulder the load next year, even if she doesn't get much support. Fun fact, Minnesota's SR fell off a cliff without Barnes... Even with her struggles, '2019 Lauren Barnes' would've easily been the Gophers best passer. Ouch.
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Post by bucky415 on Jan 3, 2020 22:09:34 GMT -5
Oh, it is a concern at the moment. I think they have the players to be good there, though. Or, good enough. They are going to miss Clark and Dodge, no doubt about that. But, I am not writing off the group of Barnes, MacDonald, Haggerty, Loberg, etc. at this point. I think Barnes will be fine at libero. Haggerty will probably pass better, and has, even the season she was working back from back surgery. But, you're right. They lost some key pieces to their back row. Hopefully they have players on hand to deal with it. Also curious, what were Barnes' passing numbers in 2017 and 2018 with Minnesota? Did her 2019 numbers slide from her time at Minnesota? This was a good question. Turns out in 2017 Barnes passed a 2.26 and in 2018 a 2.22. Either would be sufficient next year. It should be noted that she was handling fewer balls in both cases but last year no one else around her passed especially well, so she might be able to shoulder the load next year, even if she doesn't get much support. Fun fact, Minnesota's SR fell off a cliff without Barnes... Even with her struggles, '2019 Lauren Barnes' would've easily been the Gophers best passer. Ouch. Oof. I know going from a great senior setter to an unsettled situation didn't help Samedy, but that probably didn't help either.
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Post by volleyball90 on Jan 4, 2020 12:55:29 GMT -5
OK, well here are the numbers in case you're interested. Clark passed a 2.23 on the season (3 point scale). That's good. Basically 2.20 is the cut off mark for a Libero. If they're below that, you're going to see issues. Barnes passed a 2.07. That gap is a big one. Add to that the loss of ME Dodge (who passed 2.13) and I wouldn't be as confident that Barnes can adequately fill in for Clark. Where do you get these stats from? Also, do you have number of attempts as well? For instance, if Barnes was passing more than Clark, it could mean she was covering a larger area (or she was being targeted), which could account for a lower passing number.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2020 13:44:16 GMT -5
OK, well here are the numbers in case you're interested. Clark passed a 2.23 on the season (3 point scale). That's good. Basically 2.20 is the cut off mark for a Libero. If they're below that, you're going to see issues. Barnes passed a 2.07. That gap is a big one. Add to that the loss of ME Dodge (who passed 2.13) and I wouldn't be as confident that Barnes can adequately fill in for Clark. Where do you get these stats from? Also, do you have number of attempts as well? For instance, if Barnes was passing more than Clark, it could mean she was covering a larger area (or she was being targeted), which could account for a lower passing number. They're available on the analytics site volleymetrics which is a professional resource for coaches. Barnes passed about 30 balls more than Clark. No coaching staff is going to use a SR formation which gives a player passing poorly (2.07) more floor than one that is passing well (2.23). Barnes was getting targeted, which makes sense because after Haggerty she was the weakest passer this year. I'm not surprised most were unaware of this; the presence of Clark and Dodge ameliorated the situation for most of year (not to mention Hilley's ability to set poor passes as if they are good ones) but with both passers graduating Wisconsin cannot afford to another 2.07 from Barnes. To be totally honest, I wouldn't be surprised to see Sheffield use that spare scholarship to bring in a high level DS/Libero which would mean Barnes only had to fill in for Dodge (2.13), rather than Clark (2.23). Without one, that's a lot of pressure on Barnes stepping up.
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Post by northwoods on Jan 4, 2020 14:16:22 GMT -5
There were so many smalls running around last year I thought they were larping Gullivers Travels on the baseline during matches....Surely some of them worked up some passing/digging skills over the course of the season? Are Bell or AMac going to get a shot at full time DS?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2020 18:02:32 GMT -5
I would guess a no on Bell, but a yes on AMac. Barring any other backrow transfers, I would expect Barnes as libero in 2020 and AMac to be libero in 2021 and 2022. There are not a lot of other options after Barnes graduates, at this point. I would think additional smalls will have to come aboard in 2021 and/or 2022, though. I remember reading this story on Bell from the preseason. In reading it I was given the impression that Bell was a culture recruit. Someone to give effort, attitude, personality, and practice energy. One of those vital cogs to a team who may not contribute much in a match, but you cannot be successful without. Maybe that is not a fair assessment, considering who she has had in front of her throughout her career. But, that is what it appears to be from the outside. The stats from above on Barnes do not concern me for next year, assuming she becomes libero. I am more concerned with who the DSs and other passers end up being. I think stats provide an important perspective. But, they only tell part of the story.
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Post by badgerbreath on Jan 4, 2020 18:20:32 GMT -5
I totally realized that Barnes was not passing as well as Dodge and Clark last year. I just attributed it to specific reasons having to do with the strange system UW was trying to run. They gave her a difficult responsibility. She got better at it. I think she will revert to her old self this year in an expanded but simpler role, though I admit I could be wrong.
AnnaMac is the heir apparent for L. Ashburn will play a similar role to last year - we know literally nothing about her passing other than the fact that they would not use her. The question is the other position(s). Haggerty and Loberg both had one year where they both passed well. Last year was not that year. What changed? My guess is practice time. They really focussed on the offensive side of their game, especially OOS. That was huge. They weren't really supposed to pass, and seemed uncommitted pr confused when they tried. I think next year they will be back to passing more regularly.
I haven't seen from Bell any indications that she could be good enough to anchor a spot in the back row. She has a good serve at times though. Whitehead, Gregorski, Kraft? I got nothing. We'll just have to see. Sheff does appear to like some length in his back-row. I would be surprised if Gregorski wasn't at least tried at DS, given she has played L before.
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Post by nuclearbdgr on Jan 5, 2020 7:23:48 GMT -5
Where do you get these stats from? Also, do you have number of attempts as well? For instance, if Barnes was passing more than Clark, it could mean she was covering a larger area (or she was being targeted), which could account for a lower passing number. They're available on the analytics site volleymetrics which is a professional resource for coaches. Barnes passed about 30 balls more than Clark. No coaching staff is going to use a SR formation which gives a player passing poorly (2.07) more floor than one that is passing well (2.23). Barnes was getting targeted, which makes sense because after Haggerty she was the weakest passer this year. I'm not surprised most were unaware of this; the presence of Clark and Dodge ameliorated the situation for most of year (not to mention Hilley's ability to set poor passes as if they are good ones) but with both passers graduating Wisconsin cannot afford to another 2.07 from Barnes. To be totally honest, I wouldn't be surprised to see Sheffield use that spare scholarship to bring in a high level DS/Libero which would mean Barnes only had to fill in for Dodge (2.13), rather than Clark (2.23). Without one, that's a lot of pressure on Barnes stepping up. Thanks for providing the numbers!
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Post by Badger Alum on Jan 6, 2020 21:26:55 GMT -5
Which is really why a three-middle concern is attached. If the back row doesn't step up, I'm not sure how much a good offense can cover up shaky floor defense and passing. I don't think this is a three-middle offense. I think this is "We convert Robinson to an opp." Maybe even work on her back row. 100% agree about the back row attack. Love that idea!
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