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Post by newbeach on Sept 21, 2023 22:11:35 GMT -5
For all the excellent qualities she has for indoor: hitting, setting, digging... the beach game best encompasses her ability to do all three to such a high level. She is a special athlete. I really hope she finds the right partner and is a top contender for LA 2028. The partner is the real question, idk maybe she can find an indoor player who wants to transition. She’s got the time given she has to be planning for 2028 at this point and it might be easier to find a big on the indoor circuit than the outdoor one at this point. Plummer
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Post by occasionallystupid on Sept 21, 2023 23:12:08 GMT -5
The partner is the real question, idk maybe she can find an indoor player who wants to transition. She’s got the time given she has to be planning for 2028 at this point and it might be easier to find a big on the indoor circuit than the outdoor one at this point. Plummer Would be fun to see, Plummer is probably as talented as any beach blocker out there. Not sure how her passing and serve receive game are but her height, athleticism and ability to hit out of position would surely translate. not sure how you could lure her out of the indoor circuit though, particularly given that the uS has and will continue to have a very deep talent pool (although this is admittedly much less of an issue for a 6’5” blocker). Again though, would love to see it, just in general the more talent you can get on the beach side the happier I will be.
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Post by guest2 on Sept 22, 2023 0:42:28 GMT -5
I'm not bashing Heather, this is just a semantic disagreement. For me, when one player is arguably the best blocker in the world, as both Pavs and Brandie (I believe Pavs more than Brandie but both were top 3 or so) were at times when they played with Heather and the other player "wasn't actually that good" which you acknowledge, to me that means one is very weak compared to the other. In fairness, Brandie was definitely not as good when she played with Heather. She only recently added a service game that is now at least as dangerous for the other team as for her own. Also her passing has gotten tons better as well. This is both accurate and wrong. At the end of Brandie's run with Heather, she was probably the worst server at the Elite 16 level (I know it didnt exist yet, but using it for reference). But in the beginning of the partnership, her jump float was often insanely deadly. It was like Alix's flat float but better, no one could pass that thing. As for Heather, who do you think she was good in relation to? I still think we are likely just comparing against different standards. My opinion of her is based on players at the Elite 16 level. Do you think she was an average or good player at that level? I think based on her inability to put the ball down, and propensity for errors, she would not have been a main draw Elite 16 level player if paired with a blocker of her own level. I also think there were 12 plus players clearly better than her, and probably 16-25. I see her as around the same level as Brooke Sweat, both had similar levels of success primarily because they had elite blockers who drove winning to such a degree. Brooke was less dynamic - than any player and some turtles really - but she played smart volleyball, good defense and limited errors. A blocking comparison would be Therese Cannon. As an example, in 2020, I'd say April, Hughes, Sponcil, Duda, Taina, Barbara, MHP, Svetlana, Mariafe, Anouk, Borger, Rebecca, Maria, and Huberli were all at least one tier above Heather. Thats 14 players. Then you had Tillman, Flint, the Czech defender, Stockman, Marta, Brooke, and several others who, to me anyway, seemed to be in the same tier as Heather.
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Post by guest2 on Sept 22, 2023 0:43:31 GMT -5
Just based on the 2022 VNL of the 24 teams, Shannon Winzer of the Canadian team was the only female head coach. It’s evident on the international scene, sexism appears to be alive and well today. Below is a quote from a recent article. ‘While she's well known on the international volleyball circuit, it's still fairly common to have an official, opposing coach or media member approach her male assistants, presuming they are the head coach. "Yeah. It's frustrating. They're just assuming. It gets me riled up. But I have broad shoulders, I can take it. "I always say: 'Men have to prove they can't coach and I need to prove I can coach.'" Yes but was there any hint of sexism?
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Post by guest2 on Sept 22, 2023 0:48:29 GMT -5
You mean like what the Taylors have done? How has that been treated? Other than Crabb being a despicable human, whats the difference between the two? Bansley was an extremely weak player compared to both of her partners. Both Pavs and Brandie were screwed by the country system. Neither would have gone near a player at Heather's level if they were all American. I'm not certain how the Taylors fit in here. Is it because they have stopped making a serious go of it on the FIVB stage? If so I think that is a smart decision. They were never an Olympic/Elite16 caliber team. In reality I do not even consider them to be consistent enough a Challenge level team. The only difference between them and Sponcil is that the Sponcil and Cannon were actually good (top25) and could compete on the Elite16 level. I think the Taylors and Sponcil decided to do the same thing vis a vis beach. Give up on playing FIVB and just play AVP. Thats the comparison, not there comparative skill levels My point was the Taylors, who clearly just aren't very good at that level, were savaged for their decision, whereas Sarah, who is probably a top 5 and maybe a top 2 defender in the world, is getting a very different reaction but if you remove gender from the equation, her decision is much, much, less defensible than theirs. Sponcil is the same age as Patrick Mahomes, it seems odd that some of the talk around her decision is framing her as if she were a confused teenager, rather than a professional athlete in the middle of her career (27 is early middle age for modern athletes).
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Post by guest2 on Sept 22, 2023 1:15:03 GMT -5
I will give you there may be a tiny percentage of some old head AD's that won't look to a woman being a leader, but the more plausible reason is that there was a better candidate that interviewed or they don't want it. In 2022 women made up 41.2% of head coaches for NCAA women's sports (the figure is for all 3 divisions but the report cited has the division by division breakdown). mcusercontent.com/fed629dc29dd3f7020bcc564a/files/ca72f9e5-8806-fe00-c187-8852b043dc2d/2022_College_Sport_3.21_EMBARGO.pdfSurely that number has gone up immensely since 2003, when all agree sexism was still playing a role. If only that data were also available
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Post by alwaysmoreangle on Sept 22, 2023 5:14:24 GMT -5
I'm not certain how the Taylors fit in here. Is it because they have stopped making a serious go of it on the FIVB stage? If so I think that is a smart decision. They were never an Olympic/Elite16 caliber team. In reality I do not even consider them to be consistent enough a Challenge level team. The only difference between them and Sponcil is that the Sponcil and Cannon were actually good (top25) and could compete on the Elite16 level. I think the Taylors and Sponcil decided to do the same thing vis a vis beach. Give up on playing FIVB and just play AVP. Thats the comparison, not there comparative skill levels My point was the Taylors, who clearly just aren't very good at that level, were savaged for their decision, whereas Sarah, who is probably a top 5 and maybe a top 2 defender in the world, is getting a very different reaction but if you remove gender from the equation, her decision is much, much, less defensible than theirs. Sponcil is the same age as Patrick Mahomes, it seems odd that some of the talk around her decision is framing her as if she were a confused teenager, rather than a professional athlete in the middle of her career (27 is early middle age for modern athletes). I guess I missed the part where the Taylors were savaged for not playing FIVBs. My stance was always that they had no chance of being successful there so I thought it was smart of them to stop wasting money down that rabbit hole but also that they went down that rabbit hole far too long.
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Post by occasionallystupid on Sept 22, 2023 6:29:04 GMT -5
In fairness, Brandie was definitely not as good when she played with Heather. She only recently added a service game that is now at least as dangerous for the other team as for her own. Also her passing has gotten tons better as well. This is both accurate and wrong. At the end of Brandie's run with Heather, she was probably the worst server at the Elite 16 level (I know it didnt exist yet, but using it for reference). But in the beginning of the partnership, her jump float was often insanely deadly. It was like Alix's flat float but better, no one could pass that thing. As for Heather, who do you think she was good in relation to? I still think we are likely just comparing against different standards. My opinion of her is based on players at the Elite 16 level. Do you think she was an average or good player at that level? I think based on her inability to put the ball down, and propensity for errors, she would not have been a main draw Elite 16 level player if paired with a blocker of her own level. I also think there were 12 plus players clearly better than her, and probably 16-25. I see her as around the same level as Brooke Sweat, both had similar levels of success primarily because they had elite blockers who drove winning to such a degree. Brooke was less dynamic - than any player and some turtles really - but she played smart volleyball, good defense and limited errors. A blocking comparison would be Therese Cannon. As an example, in 2020, I'd say April, Hughes, Sponcil, Duda, Taina, Barbara, MHP, Svetlana, Mariafe, Anouk, Borger, Rebecca, Maria, and Huberli were all at least one tier above Heather. Thats 14 players. Then you had Tillman, Flint, the Czech defender, Stockman, Marta, Brooke, and several others who, to me anyway, seemed to be in the same tier as Heather. Lol I don’t disagree with anything except to say that the Therese Cannon comparison might be a bit harsh. Cannon is just infuriating to watch at times, she should be so much better than she is. Granted I haven’t watched Heather nearly as much but I don’t remember her being nearly so frustrating.
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Post by guest2 on Sept 22, 2023 6:36:40 GMT -5
This is both accurate and wrong. At the end of Brandie's run with Heather, she was probably the worst server at the Elite 16 level (I know it didnt exist yet, but using it for reference). But in the beginning of the partnership, her jump float was often insanely deadly. It was like Alix's flat float but better, no one could pass that thing. As for Heather, who do you think she was good in relation to? I still think we are likely just comparing against different standards. My opinion of her is based on players at the Elite 16 level. Do you think she was an average or good player at that level? I think based on her inability to put the ball down, and propensity for errors, she would not have been a main draw Elite 16 level player if paired with a blocker of her own level. I also think there were 12 plus players clearly better than her, and probably 16-25. I see her as around the same level as Brooke Sweat, both had similar levels of success primarily because they had elite blockers who drove winning to such a degree. Brooke was less dynamic - than any player and some turtles really - but she played smart volleyball, good defense and limited errors. A blocking comparison would be Therese Cannon. As an example, in 2020, I'd say April, Hughes, Sponcil, Duda, Taina, Barbara, MHP, Svetlana, Mariafe, Anouk, Borger, Rebecca, Maria, and Huberli were all at least one tier above Heather. Thats 14 players. Then you had Tillman, Flint, the Czech defender, Stockman, Marta, Brooke, and several others who, to me anyway, seemed to be in the same tier as Heather. Lol I don’t disagree with anything except to say that the Therese Cannon comparison might be a bit harsh. Cannon is just infuriating to watch at times, she should be so much better than she is. Granted I haven’t watched Heather nearly as much but I don’t remember her being nearly so frustrating. Really? I was kind of proud of that comparison. I think they both had a run with players who were the best or close to it at their position. Pavs was in the top few blockers and Sponcil is there in defenders (only Duda is definitely better IMO). Pavs and Heather played 38 with three 2nds and three 3rds Sponcil and Cannon played 18 with two 2nds and two 3rds Of course Heather did better with Brandie so its not an exact match so you may be right after all
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Post by occasionallystupid on Sept 22, 2023 6:50:03 GMT -5
I'm not certain how the Taylors fit in here. Is it because they have stopped making a serious go of it on the FIVB stage? If so I think that is a smart decision. They were never an Olympic/Elite16 caliber team. In reality I do not even consider them to be consistent enough a Challenge level team. The only difference between them and Sponcil is that the Sponcil and Cannon were actually good (top25) and could compete on the Elite16 level. I think the Taylors and Sponcil decided to do the same thing vis a vis beach. Give up on playing FIVB and just play AVP. Thats the comparison, not there comparative skill levels My point was the Taylors, who clearly just aren't very good at that level, were savaged for their decision, whereas Sarah, who is probably a top 5 and maybe a top 2 defender in the world, is getting a very different reaction but if you remove gender from the equation, her decision is much, much, less defensible than theirs. Sponcil is the same age as Patrick Mahomes, it seems odd that some of the talk around her decision is framing her as if she were a confused teenager, rather than a professional athlete in the middle of her career (27 is early middle age for modern athletes). I’m def a fan but I don’t have sponcil top 2. To my mind, i have Duda, Nuss, raisa, and mel (on her non bad days anyway), as better than sponcil right now, although I think she’s more physically gifted than anyone on that list except perhaps Duda, but the others have all played better than sponcil the past two years. For that matter right now I’d say flint is def at sponcils level too, although I don’t know if that will last.
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Post by occasionallystupid on Sept 22, 2023 6:56:43 GMT -5
Lol I don’t disagree with anything except to say that the Therese Cannon comparison might be a bit harsh. Cannon is just infuriating to watch at times, she should be so much better than she is. Granted I haven’t watched Heather nearly as much but I don’t remember her being nearly so frustrating. Really? I was kind of proud of that comparison. I think they both had a run with players who were the best or close to it at their position. Pavs was in the top few blockers and Sponcil is there in defenders (only Duda is definitely better IMO). Pavs and Heather played 38 with three 2nds and three 3rds Sponcil and Cannon played 18 with two 2nds and two 3rds Of course Heather did better with Brandie so its not an exact match so you may be right after all Its possible I may just be bitter. I wanted cannon to be so much better than she is. Watching her and rooting for her was just brutal at times.
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Post by dunninla3 on Sept 22, 2023 7:03:25 GMT -5
I think the Taylors and Sponcil decided to do the same thing vis a vis beach. Give up on playing FIVB and just play AVP. Thats the comparison, not there comparative skill levels My point was the Taylors, who clearly just aren't very good at that level, were savaged for their decision, whereas Sarah, who is probably a top 5 and maybe a top 2 defender in the world, is getting a very different reaction but if you remove gender from the equation, her decision is much, much, less defensible than theirs. Sponcil is the same age as Patrick Mahomes, it seems odd that some of the talk around her decision is framing her as if she were a confused teenager, rather than a professional athlete in the middle of her career (27 is early middle age for modern athletes). I’m def a fan but I don’t have sponcil top 2. T I didn't think she was top 2 either, until the Hermosa win, and supported by her play in Cape Town, where she outplayed Duda. Her hitting % was up at least .050 the past year. She was hitting confidently, aggressively... Remember the winning shot in Hermosa, and a shot in Cape Town that made my jaw drop... 15' off the net on a terrible set, and she destroyed that ball down the line into the corner for an untouchable winner. Very "good Duda"-esque. Duda just looked at that shot land in and was like Wow, I used to hit like that.
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Post by guest2 on Sept 22, 2023 7:14:05 GMT -5
I think the Taylors and Sponcil decided to do the same thing vis a vis beach. Give up on playing FIVB and just play AVP. Thats the comparison, not there comparative skill levels My point was the Taylors, who clearly just aren't very good at that level, were savaged for their decision, whereas Sarah, who is probably a top 5 and maybe a top 2 defender in the world, is getting a very different reaction but if you remove gender from the equation, her decision is much, much, less defensible than theirs. Sponcil is the same age as Patrick Mahomes, it seems odd that some of the talk around her decision is framing her as if she were a confused teenager, rather than a professional athlete in the middle of her career (27 is early middle age for modern athletes). I’m def a fan but I don’t have sponcil top 2. To my mind, i have Duda, Nuss, raisa, and mel (on her non bad days anyway), as better than sponcil right now, although I think she’s more physically gifted than anyone on that list except perhaps Duda, but the others have all played better than sponcil the past two years. For that matter right now I’d say flint is def at sponcils level too, although I don’t know if that will last. Id go with Raisa of those, maybe, but definitely arguable and maybe partner dependent. The only one I would definitely exclude is MHP who is too inconsistent to be on the highest level. I wuld probably take Hughes as 2 if pressed, but I waffle pretty much every event on that and it could be Raisa or Sponcil on any given day.
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Post by occasionallystupid on Sept 22, 2023 7:24:16 GMT -5
I’m def a fan but I don’t have sponcil top 2. To my mind, i have Duda, Nuss, raisa, and mel (on her non bad days anyway), as better than sponcil right now, although I think she’s more physically gifted than anyone on that list except perhaps Duda, but the others have all played better than sponcil the past two years. For that matter right now I’d say flint is def at sponcils level too, although I don’t know if that will last. Id go with Raisa of those, maybe, but definitely arguable and maybe partner dependent. The only one I would definitely exclude is MHP who is too inconsistent to be on the highest level. I wuld probably take Hughes as 2 if pressed, but I waffle pretty much every event on that and it could be Raisa or Sponcil on any given day. Until Hughes can pass more consistently I just cannot put her ahead of anyone mentioned. Offense is great and all, she’s crazy athletic and her serve game has been strong lately but passing is THE essential building block, and raisa and nuss do that better than anyone else right now which is why I have them so high. I can see the argument against MHP but when she’s on she is world class.
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Post by ajm on Sept 22, 2023 11:38:48 GMT -5
I think the Taylors and Sponcil decided to do the same thing vis a vis beach. Give up on playing FIVB and just play AVP. Thats the comparison, not there comparative skill levels My point was the Taylors, who clearly just aren't very good at that level, were savaged for their decision, whereas Sarah, who is probably a top 5 and maybe a top 2 defender in the world, is getting a very different reaction but if you remove gender from the equation, her decision is much, much, less defensible than theirs. Sponcil is the same age as Patrick Mahomes, it seems odd that some of the talk around her decision is framing her as if she were a confused teenager, rather than a professional athlete in the middle of her career (27 is early middle age for modern athletes). I guess I missed the part where the Taylors were savaged for not playing FIVBs. My stance was always that they had no chance of being successful there so I thought it was smart of them to stop wasting money down that rabbit hole but also that they went down that rabbit hole far too long. Several of us here were critical of them for not playing FIVB last year, so they could build up their entry points and get Sander acclimated with the FIVB ball, style of play, etc. Then they went on Sandcast earlier this year and defended themselves by saying it was a long cycle but that they still were aiming to qualify for the Paris Olympics. But by that point it was too late, as they didn't have enough points to get into Elite 16 events. Then they lost a couple of Challenger qualifiers and it was all over. I still believe if they had been playing FIVB all along they'd be right in the mix for USA2 right now. The Taylors have shown they can compete with Theo/Trevor, Tri/Chaim, and Chase/Miles on the AVP, and I'd bet they'd be even better if they'd been playing a full schedule against the top FIVB teams the past two years. Similarly, I don't think Sponcil is going to get any better by playing AVP only for a couple of years with an inferior partner. To be the best you need to compete with the best. Sitting out and/or playing down a level is probably going to hurt her beach career in the long run.
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