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Post by dodger on Dec 25, 2023 19:26:44 GMT -5
There are lots of things wrong with the college sports model. The first thing most people think about when they see college athletes becoming employees is: what a greedy bunch of spoiled brats, but here are some things to consider: The transactional aspect of it is that the athlete gets a college education in exchange for their services. But, the way the revenue generating sports, by the way they operate, prevents the athletes from attaining their part of the payoff. Read the article. The amount of time and effort needed to play at a Division I level makes completing the degree in four years impossible. The university makes their part of the transactions of primary importance. Have you ever wondered why the revenue sport athletes rarely finish on time? Or that a large number of them drop out after their eligibility runs out? The universities are not obligated to pay for their tuition after their eligibility runs out. The athletes take just enough hours to be considered full time students. I know if I tried to do that it would take me six or seven years to finish the curriculum. Many non-athletes now take more than four years to finish. Combine that with the amount of class time missed due to their commitment to their sport, it is a wonder any of them manage to stay eligible. Some of that has to do with the academic counseling aspect. The athletes are steered towards academic majors whose requirements best fit the needs of the sport rather than their degree. The amateur idea is a sham. The "amateur" is something cooked up by de Coubertain when he created the modern Olympics. He wanted those of his ilk, the nobility and the wealthy, to take part and not the great unwashed masses who are stronger and more athletic because they worked on farms and in factories. he created amateurs as a category so that only the idle rich can afford to train full time for the Olympics. Anyone who is a "professional" or gets paid to train are forbidden. Collegiate athletics used that definition to create this system that we have now. The thing is no one cared until the big money era of college sports. The pressures on the athletes weren't as intense before the big money era, the universities could still realistically uphold their end of the bargain, to educate the athletes, because they did not make the demands that they are now because the amount of profits was not enough to motivate them to do what they are doing now. The NCAA and the universities had their chance, at the beginning of the big money era to equitably distribute the profits, to make sure money is spent on meeting their end of the bargain, but they didn't. Which is how we got to where we are. I dont really want to go here: but they dont have time to do class work to complete degree: not true: true athletic academic advisors attempt to move athletes into easy majors to stay eligible : absolutely: but its a range: from very little to none to outrageously! Evolution of big money: first it allowed athletic departments to “raise all boats” ask any vb coach if influx of cash hasnt helped, travel, facilities, staff, etc. , etc., etc.. but then more and more money and bang all boats raised but one!! Ooops and here we are!! Move football and basketball to employees of University Marketing office. And all the emoyee money is gone: wild thought. Things change evolve: maybe we are sering the move to federated system each sport its own department! We shall see! 🎄🎄 merry christmas etc etc |
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Post by potato518 on Dec 25, 2023 19:54:35 GMT -5
If they’re on scholarship/hella NIL I can’t see an issue unless there’s a toxic coaching/team environment get your bag and degree fo free
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Post by mikegarrison on Dec 26, 2023 3:37:35 GMT -5
The amateur idea is a sham. The "amateur" is something cooked up by de Coubertain when he created the modern Olympics. He wanted those of his ilk, the nobility and the wealthy, to take part and not the great unwashed masses who are stronger and more athletic because they worked on farms and in factories. he created amateurs as a category so that only the idle rich can afford to train full time for the Olympics. Anyone who is a "professional" or gets paid to train are forbidden. Collegiate athletics used that definition to create this system that we have now. While you are absolutely right about why "amateurs" were given special status in sports, it is not true that it was just de Coubertain who invented it. In fact, even before those first Olympic games in 1896, Rugby football had already split between professional and amateur leagues over much the same issue. Rugby, which was invented by the upper middle class private school kids, had started to become popular with lower class working men. But they needed to get paid in order to be able to take time off from their jobs to train and play. So by excluding "professionals" from the game, the upper class men were able to keep control of the game. This was why "Rugby Union" and "Rugby League" split. Similar issues split tennis, golf, association football (aka soccer), baseball, and other sports at the same time. So the Olympics only being for "amateurs" was part of a bigger thing, not really the main driver for "amateur sports". But regardless, yes, it was all about class distinctions and making sure the upper class amateurs didn't have to compete with the lower class professionals. |
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Post by BeachbytheBay on Dec 26, 2023 10:02:13 GMT -5
if the school pays them a salary and not a scholarship - the bottom line
that's it.
once that happens though then a major pandora's box beyond the horrific current one, imagine paying a QB $1 mil a year from the school vs. a Nobel prize professor. it's bad enough teh Saban's get $10 million which Alabama could hire 50 Nobel winners a year instead.
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Post by mervinswerved on Dec 26, 2023 10:08:31 GMT -5
if the school pays them a salary and not a scholarship - the bottom line that's it. I don't see a reason for scholarships to go away. Those endowments already exist and it just becomes another piece of their total compensation. |
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Post by vbnerd on Feb 21, 2024 10:48:19 GMT -5
So the Dartmouth case got interesting. www.sportico.com/law/analysis/2024/dartmouth-dining-services-basketball-employees-1234767391/"One of the arguments Dartmouth College asserts in insisting the 15 players on the men’s basketball team aren’t employees is that the team allegedly operates at a loss.
A new story in The Dartmouth student newspaper reveals Dartmouth Dining Services, which employs unionized Dartmouth student workers, similarly operates at a loss."Apparently Dartmouth's Student Worker Collective negotiated a $21/hr minimum wage. So if basketball's 15 "employees" made $21/hr for 20 hours a week that is $6300/wk for the season which is about 20 weeks assuming no NCAA tournament. I come up with $126,000 for the team for the season. For an IVY League team, $126k is a drop in the bucket compared to the scholarship budget at most schools, but that's just basketball. Using the same math, Rowing's 50 athletes would earn over $400,000 in addition to the current expenses. But considering recent court cases, who LIMITS their players to any applicable minimum wage? If Charlotte pays it's basketball players $25/hr, isn't NC State going to pay $30? And UNC $35? Or maybe we need to add some zeros. As recently departed Boston College football coach said, a college coach's job now with NIL is to manage a salary cap, only there is no cap. It's easy to see athletes-as-employees exacerbating that. Also, I haven't heard what makes the Dartmouth MBB team employees that wouldn't apply to the Dartmouth softball team? or the D3 UMass-Dartmouth softball team? Or the high school athletic teams? If receiving gear and training makes you an employee, are we going to start paying the Little League World Series participants? College sports existed before the large sums of cash, and I get that the NCAA created this monster, but where we go from here will have some serious consequences. |
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Post by BeachbytheBay on Feb 21, 2024 12:04:04 GMT -5
scholarships should be done away with
it's either a student-athlete model or it's not
NIL is and should be separate from paying an athlete as an employee. hard to argue about having NIL avail, although ideally there should absolutely be a firewall between an AD department and any outside NIL organization, and no NILs directly affiliated with a university. make NIL true NIL
in a 'perfect world' lol
only student-athlete schollies, no stipends
if students want to also have a campus job as well, fine, on them
NIL - there simply should be no connection with NIL and a university. things like University NIL that spread NIL to only athletes at a university should be abolished. absolutely no communications between a Univ and any NIL groups, zip, otherwise a violation
that would truly make NIL a free agent type of income completely separated from a university, as it should be with any person free to pursue money
probably not enforceable - but it would be the only way to have a real student athlete model,
lastly, abolish any facility or special program that segregates athletes from students.
football weight room and training table? all avail to any student, otherwise it's a violation. simple in theory.
get rid of all the hypocrisy that segregates athletes into a cacoon from the general student body
huge reduction in practice time allowed for sports, especially football. 20 hrs/week is insane, should be 10 or less period. they are or should be students that are athletes. never will happen, we must have it like professional sports
the college athlete-industry-complex is the cause
of course that's all a pipe dream at this point, unenforceable nor desirable by the big boys, they want or have made themselves into a de facto pro sorts franchise
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Post by volleyguy on Feb 21, 2024 12:28:21 GMT -5
scholarships should be done away with it's either a student-athlete model or it's not NIL is and should be separate from paying an athlete as an employee. hard to argue about having NIL avail, although ideally there should absolutely be a firewall between an AD department and any outside NIL organization, and no NILs directly affiliated with a university. make NIL true NIL in a 'perfect world' lol only student-athlete schollies, no stipends if students want to also have a campus job as well, fine, on them NIL - there simply should be no connection with NIL and a university. things like University NIL that spread NIL to only athletes at a university should be abolished. absolutely no communications between a Univ and any NIL groups, zip, otherwise a violation that would truly make NIL a free agent type of income completely separated from a university, as it should be with any person free to pursue money probably not enforceable - but it would be the only way to have a real student athlete model, lastly, abolish any facility or special program that segregates athletes from students. football weight room and training table? all avail to any student, otherwise it's a violation. simple in theory. get rid of all the hypocrisy that segregates athletes into a cacoon from the general student body huge reduction in practice time allowed for sports, especially football. 20 hrs/week is insane, should be 10 or less period. they are or should be students that are athletes. never will happen, we must have it like professional sports the college athlete-industry-complex is the cause of course that's all a pipe dream at this point, unenforceable nor desirable by the big boys, they want or have made themselves into a de facto pro sorts franchise But Dartmouth is an Ivy League school, and Ivy League schools don't provide athletic scholarships, only general financial aid. So, they're already modeling your example and the employee question is still an issue. Secondly, NIL is already supposed to be separate from the University, according to the Supreme Court decision. The problem is that Universities and their respective state governments are using the NIL decision to super charge pay to play. And the NCAA has been unable to reign in member schools because it left open the barn doors in the aftermath of the Alston decision. Congressional legislation is the only viable solution that would end the chaos, and we know that the possibility of that happening is very unlikely at this point, so we will most likely see a situation that is drawn out and chaotic as these legal challenges play out. |
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Post by oldman on Feb 21, 2024 14:59:04 GMT -5
There are lots of things wrong with the college sports model. The first thing most people think about when they see college athletes becoming employees is: what a greedy bunch of spoiled brats, but here are some things to consider: The transactional aspect of it is that the athlete gets a college education in exchange for their services. But, the way the revenue generating sports, by the way they operate, prevents the athletes from attaining their part of the payoff. Read the article. The amount of time and effort needed to play at a Division I level makes completing the degree in four years impossible. The university makes their part of the transactions of primary importance. Have you ever wondered why the revenue sport athletes rarely finish on time? Or that a large number of them drop out after their eligibility runs out? The universities are not obligated to pay for their tuition after their eligibility runs out. The athletes take just enough hours to be considered full time students. I know if I tried to do that it would take me six or seven years to finish the curriculum. Many non-athletes now take more than four years to finish. Combine that with the amount of class time missed due to their commitment to their sport, it is a wonder any of them manage to stay eligible. Some of that has to do with the academic counseling aspect. The athletes are steered towards academic majors whose requirements best fit the needs of the sport rather than their degree. The amateur idea is a sham. The "amateur" is something cooked up by de Coubertain when he created the modern Olympics. He wanted those of his ilk, the nobility and the wealthy, to take part and not the great unwashed masses who are stronger and more athletic because they worked on farms and in factories. he created amateurs as a category so that only the idle rich can afford to train full time for the Olympics. Anyone who is a "professional" or gets paid to train are forbidden. Collegiate athletics used that definition to create this system that we have now. The thing is no one cared until the big money era of college sports. The pressures on the athletes weren't as intense before the big money era, the universities could still realistically uphold their end of the bargain, to educate the athletes, because they did not make the demands that they are now because the amount of profits was not enough to motivate them to do what they are doing now. The NCAA and the universities had their chance, at the beginning of the big money era to equitably distribute the profits, to make sure money is spent on meeting their end of the bargain, but they didn't. Which is how we got to where we are. IMHO: Fans attend games in large part because of the name on the front of the jersey. If we had a system 300+ of minor league or semi-pro teams in basketball there would be no attendance, March Madness or money generated for athletes and coaches. |
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Post by BeachbytheBay on Feb 21, 2024 16:25:07 GMT -5
scholarships should be done away with it's either a student-athlete model or it's not NIL is and should be separate from paying an athlete as an employee. hard to argue about having NIL avail, although ideally there should absolutely be a firewall between an AD department and any outside NIL organization, and no NILs directly affiliated with a university. make NIL true NIL in a 'perfect world' lol only student-athlete schollies, no stipends if students want to also have a campus job as well, fine, on them NIL - there simply should be no connection with NIL and a university. things like University NIL that spread NIL to only athletes at a university should be abolished. absolutely no communications between a Univ and any NIL groups, zip, otherwise a violation that would truly make NIL a free agent type of income completely separated from a university, as it should be with any person free to pursue money probably not enforceable - but it would be the only way to have a real student athlete model, lastly, abolish any facility or special program that segregates athletes from students. football weight room and training table? all avail to any student, otherwise it's a violation. simple in theory. get rid of all the hypocrisy that segregates athletes into a cacoon from the general student body huge reduction in practice time allowed for sports, especially football. 20 hrs/week is insane, should be 10 or less period. they are or should be students that are athletes. never will happen, we must have it like professional sports the college athlete-industry-complex is the cause of course that's all a pipe dream at this point, unenforceable nor desirable by the big boys, they want or have made themselves into a de facto pro sorts franchise But Dartmouth is an Ivy League school, and Ivy League schools don't provide athletic scholarships, only general financial aid. So, they're already modeling your example and the employee question is still an issue. Secondly, NIL is already supposed to be separate from the University, according to the Supreme Court decision. The problem is that Universities and their respective state governments are using the NIL decision to super charge pay to play. And the NCAA has been unable to reign in member schools because it left open the barn doors in the aftermath of the Alston decision. Congressional legislation is the only viable solution that would end the chaos, and we know that the possibility of that happening is very unlikely at this point, so we will most likely see a situation that is drawn out and chaotic as these legal challenges play out. yep, a Congress that wants to be a continuous investigative body, and not actually do legislation. that's our Congress, or the HOuse at least. Right now, Russia could invade the US, and declaring War would probably be held up for some reason. As to Dartmouth, not sure that is finished, just appears a perplexing decision. maybe Ivy's going to athletic scholarships would change that NIL: definitely for the courts. sooner or later would think the lack of a firewall between NIL funders and University coaches would be a court case, and would love to see the depositions that could come out in that one. to me, NIL only makes sense as intended if there is a real fireway and any NIL fund cannot be associated or targeted to a specific University, I'm sure hell would freeze over first |
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Post by FUBAR on Feb 21, 2024 18:28:56 GMT -5
...but I also wanted the NCAA to ...count travel in the 20 hour limit Even if you made conferences regional this would be hard to make work in the northwest and southwest. As it exists now, in conferences like the WAC & Big Sky (let alone the new B1G and SEC) conference travel alone would run you right out of practice hours. You might be able to pull it off if you regionalized conferences in some parts of the country though. |
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Post by BeachbytheBay on Feb 21, 2024 22:25:51 GMT -5
There are lots of things wrong with the college sports model. The first thing most people think about when they see college athletes becoming employees is: what a greedy bunch of spoiled brats, but here are some things to consider: The transactional aspect of it is that the athlete gets a college education in exchange for their services. But, the way the revenue generating sports, by the way they operate, prevents the athletes from attaining their part of the payoff. Read the article. The amount of time and effort needed to play at a Division I level makes completing the degree in four years impossible. The university makes their part of the transactions of primary importance. Have you ever wondered why the revenue sport athletes rarely finish on time? Or that a large number of them drop out after their eligibility runs out? The universities are not obligated to pay for their tuition after their eligibility runs out. The athletes take just enough hours to be considered full time students. I know if I tried to do that it would take me six or seven years to finish the curriculum. Many non-athletes now take more than four years to finish. Combine that with the amount of class time missed due to their commitment to their sport, it is a wonder any of them manage to stay eligible. Some of that has to do with the academic counseling aspect. The athletes are steered towards academic majors whose requirements best fit the needs of the sport rather than their degree. The amateur idea is a sham. The "amateur" is something cooked up by de Coubertain when he created the modern Olympics. He wanted those of his ilk, the nobility and the wealthy, to take part and not the great unwashed masses who are stronger and more athletic because they worked on farms and in factories. he created amateurs as a category so that only the idle rich can afford to train full time for the Olympics. Anyone who is a "professional" or gets paid to train are forbidden. Collegiate athletics used that definition to create this system that we have now. The thing is no one cared until the big money era of college sports. The pressures on the athletes weren't as intense before the big money era, the universities could still realistically uphold their end of the bargain, to educate the athletes, because they did not make the demands that they are now because the amount of profits was not enough to motivate them to do what they are doing now. The NCAA and the universities had their chance, at the beginning of the big money era to equitably distribute the profits, to make sure money is spent on meeting their end of the bargain, but they didn't. Which is how we got to where we are. IMHO: Fans attend games in large part because of the name on the front of the jersey. If we had a system 300+ of minor league or semi-pro teams in basketball there would be no attendance, March Madness or money generated for athletes and coaches. so how is it a good thing to basically tell 278 out of 340 or so that they don't belong, and expect they'll just identify with those top 40 or 50, simply because they can no longer be in the same division? that's a big question, will those 270 or so see a huge reduction in attendance if they are relegated. some examples like FCS football would seem to suggest college athletics can survive below the big leagues. would a 'FCS equivalent' for basketball thrive? It's hard to think it would, especially if it's encumbered by having athletes as employees. |
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Post by vbnerd on Feb 22, 2024 11:21:59 GMT -5
I would say when they graduate and get a job… but I also wanted the NCAA to guarantee a second off day each week, count travel in the 20 hour limit, and limit competition on class days. Instead they embraced the role of money at every opportunity so this wouldn’t shock me. You just doomed all athletics programs from the state of Hawaii as well as kill athletics attendance nationwide. Not all games start after 6 pm ...but I also wanted the NCAA to ...count travel in the 20 hour limit Even if you made conferences regional this would be hard to make work in the northwest and southwest. As it exists now, in conferences like the WAC & Big Sky (let alone the new B1G and SEC) conference travel alone would run you right out of practice hours. You might be able to pull it off if you regionalized conferences in some parts of the country though. I wasn't planning to follow up but it's been brought up twice now, so... So the problem was that student athletes were being exploited, and momentum was building that they needed to be paid. I worked in a major D1 conference, and came away with the opinion that athletes are being exploited, so lets stop exploiting them (I was in the small minority on this one). My position a decade ago was that we give the athletes a second day off each week, guarantee them time in the calendar for academic internships, count travel in the 20 hour limit and limit competition on class days with the point being to emphasize that they are students who are also athletes, and not athletes who happen to attend class when it doesn't interfere with there primary purpose on campus - selling tickets. Yes it would limit conference size, schedule construction, and fans ability to attend games but none of those thing would be as important as a students ability to complete their lab/paper/exam in the classroom and then go play a sport. There are already exemptions for playing teams in Alaska and Hawaii, maybe they'd need to add Northern Arizona and Southern Utah (et al) into some of those, and those schools would need to take a hard look at what sports they can compete in while allowing their student athletes to have a full academic experience. Of course this is NOT the direction that anybody in the NCAA has decided to go. Colleges were offered money for a 24 hour bonanza of basketball on a weekday to start the season and they took it. Conference tournaments that take athletes out of class for a week, no problem. Thursday night football extended into Wednesday and even Tuesday night football, shutting down all classes on campus for the right to host. We have volleyball teams flying on Tuesday to play on Wednesday and return to campus Thursday morning - impacting 3 class days. 10 hour bus rides to conference games are not hard to find. Leagues with their own 24 hour networks - naturally! And we now have three conferences who extend from coast to coast. NONE of this puts students first. It's all about grabbing as much cash as possible. And now you have athletes (not student athletes, Cardale Jones made it clear they "are here to play football, not to play school.") who are there for the money, choose schools based on short term income, and even the Dartmouth basketball team, who in some cases are only allowed into an Ivy League school because they can run and shoot, now want to be paid to be athletes. This wasn't an intentional decision that was made, it was millions of little decisions to take a few more dollars than the other conference/school/coach/player got that got us to where we are. I don't get the impression the SEC is happy to share with the Metro Atlantic anymore, let alone D2 and D3. I'm not sure Florida wants to share with Mississippi State and Vanderbilt anymore. Football coaches may not want to share with tennis or rowing anymore. And it seems like the courts aren't going to make anyone share with the NCAA anymore. So something is coming, and whatever the next iteration looks like, I hope there is room for college students to enjoy athletics. |
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Post by FUBAR on Mar 28, 2024 15:11:01 GMT -5
You just doomed all athletics programs from the state of Hawaii as well as kill athletics attendance nationwide. Not all games start after 6 pm Even if you made conferences regional this would be hard to make work in the northwest and southwest. As it exists now, in conferences like the WAC & Big Sky (let alone the new B1G and SEC) conference travel alone would run you right out of practice hours. You might be able to pull it off if you regionalized conferences in some parts of the country though. I wasn't planning to follow up but it's been brought up twice now, so... So the problem was that student athletes were being exploited, and momentum was building that they needed to be paid. I worked in a major D1 conference, and came away with the opinion that athletes are being exploited, so lets stop exploiting them (I was in the small minority on this one). My position a decade ago was that we give the athletes a second day off each week, guarantee them time in the calendar for academic internships, count travel in the 20 hour limit and limit competition on class days with the point being to emphasize that they are students who are also athletes, and not athletes who happen to attend class when it doesn't interfere with there primary purpose on campus - selling tickets. Yes it would limit conference size, schedule construction, and fans ability to attend games but none of those thing would be as important as a students ability to complete their lab/paper/exam in the classroom and then go play a sport. There are already exemptions for playing teams in Alaska and Hawaii, maybe they'd need to add Northern Arizona and Southern Utah (et al) into some of those, and those schools would need to take a hard look at what sports they can compete in while allowing their student athletes to have a full academic experience. Of course this is NOT the direction that anybody in the NCAA has decided to go. Colleges were offered money for a 24 hour bonanza of basketball on a weekday to start the season and they took it. Conference tournaments that take athletes out of class for a week, no problem. Thursday night football extended into Wednesday and even Tuesday night football, shutting down all classes on campus for the right to host. We have volleyball teams flying on Tuesday to play on Wednesday and return to campus Thursday morning - impacting 3 class days. 10 hour bus rides to conference games are not hard to find. Leagues with their own 24 hour networks - naturally! And we now have three conferences who extend from coast to coast. NONE of this puts students first. It's all about grabbing as much cash as possible. And now you have athletes (not student athletes, Cardale Jones made it clear they "are here to play football, not to play school.") who are there for the money, choose schools based on short term income, and even the Dartmouth basketball team, who in some cases are only allowed into an Ivy League school because they can run and shoot, now want to be paid to be athletes. This wasn't an intentional decision that was made, it was millions of little decisions to take a few more dollars than the other conference/school/coach/player got that got us to where we are. I don't get the impression the SEC is happy to share with the Metro Atlantic anymore, let alone D2 and D3. I'm not sure Florida wants to share with Mississippi State and Vanderbilt anymore. Football coaches may not want to share with tennis or rowing anymore. And it seems like the courts aren't going to make anyone share with the NCAA anymore. So something is coming, and whatever the next iteration looks like, I hope there is room for college students to enjoy athletics. Sorry, I don't log on very often. You have a lot of fair points in all this. I don't think kids are being exploited academically. If the kid wants to focus on school not sport we have options for that. Players in the major travel conferences are making a choice to be athlete-students. They have plenty of other options available. Go to a low travel D1 or D2 conference, get some or all of your school paid for, and be in class most of the time. I'm sure they run their mouths sometimes, but their actions/choices tell you what their priorities are. Just because you want to do two things at a really high level doesn't mean you can. Most people are going to have to make some choices. |
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Post by vbnerd on Apr 1, 2024 9:19:25 GMT -5
Sorry, I don't log on very often. You have a lot of fair points in all this. I don't think kids are being exploited academically. If the kid wants to focus on school not sport we have options for that. Players in the major travel conferences are making a choice to be athlete-students. They have plenty of other options available. Go to a low travel D1 or D2 conference, get some or all of your school paid for, and be in class most of the time. I'm sure they run their mouths sometimes, but their actions/choices tell you what their priorities are. Just because you want to do two things at a really high level doesn't mean you can. Most people are going to have to make some choices. So you say real students just shouldn't go to big schools? But be careful, because some of the small schools only offer 1-2 sections of certain classes. I know a VB player who had to take Bio lab on league match days. She missed every other lab for road games and failed the class. So what? She should have gone to a bigger school? So if we make it too hard to be a student-athlete at a big school, and we make it too hard to be a student-athlete at a small school, where do student-athletes go? And will there be enough opportunities for them? Why are "athlete-students" in college at all? BTW, when I mentioned 10 hour bus rides, I was thinking of a mid-major and a western D2. Being a student-athlete is never going to be easy but there are certainly ways to make it easier. |
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